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PORTER COUNTY PLAN COMMISSION
Regular Meeting M I N U T E S The regular meeting of the Porter County Plan Commission was held on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 at 6:30 p.m. in the Administrative Center, 155 Indiana Avenue, Suite 205, Valparaiso, Indiana. Those members present were Rick Burns, Tim Cole, Robert Detert, Commissioner Bob Harper, Elizabeth Marshall, Herb Read, Rita Stevenson and Kevin Breitzke, President. Those members absent were Todd Hutson. Staff members present were Robert W. Thompson Jr., Raymond S. Joseph Jr., Attorney Scott McClure and Patricia S. Gibson. Mr. Detert moved to waive the reading of the September 12, 2007 minutes and approve them as received in the mail. Mr. Burns seconded the motion, which carried on a unanimous voice vote. Approval of the September 26, 2007 minutes. Mr. Read stated I would like to make some clarifications to my remarks. In reading the minutes I find that I use the words “it” or “this” or “that” in a number of locations. It wasn’t very clear. I have marked up about six locations on what I meant. For example, “it” might mean the storm water runoff or “that” might have meant the ordinance. I request permission to have the record either corrected or clarified with what I meant. Mr. Read moved to approve the minutes of September 26, 2007 with the clarifications as stated. Commissioner Harper seconded the motion, which carried on a unanimous voice vote. Other Business: Corridor Plan and Construction Standards discussion. Mr. Thompson stated to explain the top three is going to be for the purposes of creating an RFP and I will be making a more detail scope of services from that. From there the Plan Commission can look at the scope of services and interview the three and then make a recommendation to the Commissioners. The top four were American Structurepoint, Ratio Architects, T.Y. Lin International and URS/DLZ.
At this time, Mr. Breitzke read the rules of conduct for a public hearing. Case 07-Z-13. Petition of Timberland Farms, LLC, P.O. Box 472, Valparaiso, Indiana for a proposed amendment to the Master Plan to rezone a parcel of land from RR, Rural Residential to R-1, Low Density Single Family Residential for a proposed subdivision to be located North of Fox Chase Farms Subdivision, approximately 600 feet South of CR 900 N. in Liberty Township. William Ferngren from Ferngren Law Offices, LLC, 570 Vale Park Road, Suite B, Valparaiso. Mike Duffy from Duneland Group, Engineering firm for the project. Charlie Ray is also with Duneland Group. Jack Barko who is a member of Timberland Farms LLC Development Company. They have provided all of the notice by publication and certified mailings that are required. Mr. Ferngren stated the property that is before you tonight is part of what is shown on the drawing. The petition tonight is for the 20 acres here, however, we are considering this entire project as one. The property is located on the West side of Meridian Road and is currently zoned RR, Rural Residential. There are no environmental features on the site. To the north there is some rural residential zoning property, to the south is Fox Chase Farms that is zoned R-1. To the east is partially Timberland Subdivision and to the west is institutionally zoned property, which is the Liberty Intermediate School. We believe that this zoning request is appropriate. The proposed use of the property in its entirety is single family residential purposes. We have part on the east side that is already zoned R-1 and that consists of about 120 acres. On these 120 acres we are showing a concept of about 48 acres of open space. When you add in the easements to this parcel it increases that then some. We will have about 48% of the east of this development that will be dedicated to functional usable open space according to the ordinance. We are proposing 185 single family residential lots. These are joined at the hip so now we shift over to the 20 acre site. This site has approximately 4.77 acres of open space and a little over 23% of open space shown now. On these 20 acres we are proposing 61 single family residential lots. We need to combine the sites. They both compliment each other. Part of what would be included would be a trail system in and around the site, which join the east side of the road and the west side of the road then also the subdivision to the north, which is Timberland Subdivision. Utilities for the site would be provided through the Damon Run Conservancy District. There are sewer and water pipes that are brand new fully functioning and operating very well that run right in front of this site. The Damon Run Conservancy District Board has met and has identified this property as property that would petition the Circuit Court for annexation should this group ultimately move forward on this type of petition. When Damon Run was designed it was created in anticipation for this very type of development. It is fully capable of handling anything that would come from the proposed development and is functioning very well. The sewer would be discharged into the districts pipes and then onto Portage and the water would be provided through the Indiana American Water Company. Mike Duffy stated we have created the 30-foot perimeter buffer zones on the additional 50-foot along Meridian Road. The detention pond within the site is expected to be wet bottom. If you look at the concept you can see that over half of the lots are directly above some type of open space network through this system. We tried to keep a good buffer zone on the south side against Fox Chase Farms because there is an existing farm line that goes along there. We want to keep a lot of open space up by the road to give a nice look to the subdivision and to line up the roads with our proposed subdivision on the east side and to basically create the same subdivision, which is only separated by Meridian Road. Mr. Ferngren stated one of the most important things that are identified in your UDO is the implementation of the use of sewer and water. The septic and well systems are highly disfavored. Large subdivision on well and septic are not favored. Additionally, under rural residential the discussion when you get into the design standards for sewer, the septic systems permitted only where sanitary sewer utility is unavailable. Clearly the sewer utility is available and is here. Water is also available. The R-1 is your low density residential classification and it is just like the surrounding properties. So we don’t believe that this is going to be something that doesn’t fit well within the area. Jack Barko a member of Timberland Farms LLC. Mr. Barko thanked the Planning Commission for hearing this proposal this evening. They worked hard to read and hear what was in the UDO and to provide open space on this project. Guy Wallace, 888 Meridian Road. Mr. Wallace is concerned with drainage, the loss of environmental enjoyment, traffic. They are involved with 4-H and they have chickens and roosters. He is concerned that the people who buy into the subdivision will complain about the noise from his fowl. He wants a hundred foot cushion from his property with a ten foot brick fence running the length of the 20 acres and fruit and nuts trees planted for the full length of the 20 acres. Brenda Wallace, 888 Meridian Road. Mrs. Wallace is concerned with traffic, the drinking water, the loss of the rural setting and the entrances. Bev Caldwell, 98 W. 700 N. Mrs. Caldwell is concerned with overcrowding of the schools. She feels that the Board is failing the people because of approving all the subdivision around her. She is against the rezoning. J.F. Schraeder, 978 N. Meridian Road. Mr. Schraeder is concerned on the drainage. Mr. Dhaemers, 11 Stonegate Dr. Mr. Dhaemers is concerned on drainage. Mr. Michalski, 29 Stonegate Dr. Mr. Michalski is concerned on drainage and that this will flood his property. Mark Batton, 20 W. 900 N. Mr. Batton is concerned with drainage and where the water will go. Larry Langlen, 25 Stonegate. Mr. Langlen is concerned with drainage, the environment, his septic and his well. Jeff Jirtle, 252 W. Hwy 6. Mr. Jirtle is in favor of this petition. He lives next to Eagle Ridge Subdivision. He worked along Mr. Barko on the drainage problems and they sorted out all of those issues. He is happy with what Eagle Ridge has done as far as drainage. He just wants everyone to know that they did take care of all of those issues. Ray Ritchie, 6 Stonegate Dr. Mr. Ritchie is neither in favor or against the rezone. He is concerned on the drainage and his septic and well and property values. Doris Scheffler, 6 W. 900 N. Mrs. Scheffler is concerned with her livestock, which are horses. She wanted to know if they are going to have a buffer on the north side of the property. She is also concerned on the drainage, chemicals put on lawns and the open landscaping, traffic and she wanted to know if there was a traffic study done. Glen Arnold, 3 Browning Lane. Mr. Arnold is concerned on the traffic on Meridian Road. Mr. Ferngren stated there are no entrances that would shine any headlights into anybody’s existing home. There will be 61 lots on the rezoning portion and on the east side of road 185 lots. Liberty Intermediate School has plans for expansion. Tree line and buffers as mentioned are requirements of the ordinance and must be put up at the time of platting which will be a 30-foot buffer along the property lines abutting other properties and then 50-feet along rights-of-way such as Meridian. They will not disturb the existing tree lines. Mike Duffy explained the drainage and that it was a requirement of the platting process that they are going to have to go through engineering review to make sure that they have covered everything. The detention pond will be wet bottom. There will be rear yard drainage to prevent water runoff with the subdivision. Timberland does not send any of the water over to the drainage tile. Their water is captured. The water has been coming there for years and it seems to be stagnant now. The pond here will release at a lower rate. Charlie Ray stated the farm tile that runs back through to the center of the field where everything is wet, then on around and back out towards CR 900 N. to a low area where it then crosses CR 900 N. and runs into a big wetland area, runs underneath the railroad and into the pond, which is on Mr. Michaels property. What they had planned on doing with the Gaither property was to take it north and run it all the way down to where it goes. They couldn’t do that so they had to go into wetlands, which is over directly across in the Timberland area. The tile now doesn’t work properly and that is why there is water sitting in the middle of the field. This area would be regarded so that with manholes to pick up the drainage that runs to here, which would then run it over and then down to this side by the creek which is an arm of Damon Run. Mr. Ferngren stated I believe that Meridian Road is okay for traffic and also the point is that the zoning is really more about use then the actual approval of the design of the infrastructure. We will be back with fully engineered drawings that will further delineate what Mr. Ray has identified for you as potential solutions. Mr. Michalski asked where is the green space. Mrs. Wallace also had a concern about the construction workers cutting their cable or utility line and all the construction noise. Mrs. Caldwell stated if there were less homes the drainage would be better. Tim Trowbridge, 10 W. 900 N. He is concerned about the back yard drainage and who is going to maintain that.
Mr. Schraeder had a concern on the overall drainage and what the conservancy district is going to charge each individual home owner. Timmy Trowbridge, 10 W. 900 N. Mr. Trowbridge was concerned about the school and the school having to add more classes. Mr. Ferngren stated I indicated in the first part of my presentation that there was going to be 4.77 acres of green space on this parcel. As far as utility service, we don’t intend on being in Mrs. Wallace’s front yard. As far as rear yard drainage, as part of the platting process that will be addressed at that time, as well as the storm water management. The districts charges are essentially past through charges from the City of Portage and Indiana American Water. There are user fees associated with the sewer and water and the district does have operating expenses that the district does have to pay. Each customer pays $7.50 for sewer and water in addition to what they use. Lisa Ritchie, 6 Stone Gate Dr. Mrs. Ritchie is concerned on how this is going to affect their property values. She is also concerned about drainage. She is concerned about the 241 homes that will be built there. Mr. Trowbridge asked will the rear yard drainage be put in prior to building the house. Who is going to maintain this to make sure that it doesn’t get filled in with the backfill of dirt from the basement? Daran Soha, 27 Stone Gate. He is concerned about the wells and how all of this other property is going to affect his water. Mrs. Caldwell stated I still think that you can build less homes and more expensive homes on an acre lot and make a better profit. A lady from the audience asked what size the lots were going to be and what is the price range going to be. Mrs. Wallace asked did the building stop in Timberland until the problem at 900 was fixed.
Timmy Trowbridge asked what are they going to do about the overcrowding of the schools. He was raised on well water and he wouldn’t want to change to city water. Mr. Ferngren stated I am certain that this project will add students to the schools but the school corporation will have to address that. The lot sizes are approximately 60 X 135, which is in compliance with the zoning ordinance. Concerning the well, the property in the area is already farmed. Obviously, farmers use a number of chemicals all the time and we don’t believe that this will have an adverse affect on the wells in the area. The proposed homes will not have a negative affect on the values of the existing homes. As far as whose responsibility it is to monitor the ditches that will be installed. The developer will be responsible for this. Mr. Barko stated the homes will be between $250,000 to $300,000. The public hearing was then closed. Mr. Burns stated the traffic is a concern of mine and it is a problem. What is the transition from RR to R-1. Mr. Detert stated I will pass to Tim Cole because he has lived there all his life and he knows that area better than any of us. Mrs. Stevenson stated if you are planning on putting 181 homes out there why wouldn’t you have done a study for the traffic. Mr. Ferngren stated I don’t know why the traffic study wasn’t done. My estimation would be that the developer and engineers that are looking at this felt that the road was adequate to handle the traffic at this location. Then when you take into account the other components with platting such as dedicating of right-of-way, providing turning lanes directed by the Highway Department and those sorts of things. That will then satisfy the traffic issues in the area. Mr. Cole stated as long as the traffic study is fresh on everybody’s mind I have to consider myself at another meeting in the municipality not too long ago where I was told that such studies are not the cause of the meeting since it was on rezoning only. I would like to think that Porter County has a better attitude towards that and that we do look at important issues that are relevant to a rezoning. We should study some of those issues and I do believe a traffic study should have been done. Meridian has horrendous traffic now and it is not due to the subdivisions. It is due to the people going from Chesterton to Valpo without using the Bypass. Maybe the best solution to improving Meridian is to widen it. In order to widen it, property must be purchased. I guess we have come upon one of the best avenues of doing that by every subdivision donating additional right-of-way to a road so that it can be widened. It is actually part of an answer to a long standing problem and a very big future problem. Traffic is not going to lessen on Meridian Road whether this subdivision gets built or not. By this subdivision coming in the land purchase will allow a donation of additional right-of-way. Now that leads us to another problem. Yes, we have all moved here for the rural nature. I didn’t, I was born here. We have to face a big issue here. If you want rural settings, you have to buy it. You can’t depend on your neighbor to provide it for you. If we want rural settings, then we have to buy them ourselves and we have to shoulder the burden of the taxes, the burden of the maintenance and everything else that comes along with it. I have sat there in the audience many times in the past and have heckled this poor Board up here with the same issues that you have raised knowing full well that the answer is not easy for this Board to provide a satisfactory answer for you. The farmer is willing to sell. The farmer really has no means, no future to look forward to to keep on farming. No farmer has come forth to him to say, “Don’t let that developer buy that property. Sell it to me. I want to continue farming.” This man must move on. You can’t ask people not to develop when that seems to be the only answer to the disposal of property. If you have a better answer, please provide it but it has to be an answer that is satisfactory to everybody. The other issue is drainage. I am sorry for the people in Fox Chase Farms that have wet basements. It is a problem not only there but all over the county and it is one that we are all trying to address and find solutions for. Might I add that I have walked that 20 acre field and I have noticed that some of the wetness in that field and some of the wetness in those backyards are due to people draining their sump pumps into that field? That is illegal. Those people doing it are doing it illegally. That farmer can’t farm that field, which is another good reason for him to sell to a developer. The developer has the means of providing a solution to that drainage problem. The Damon Run Conservancy District is probably one of the better answers and one of the better solutions of developing septic field failure rate in Liberty Township, a well failure rate in Liberty Township. I grew up in Liberty Township and I grew up on well water and I now drink bottled water because the aquifer regardless of what experts might tell you, the aquifer is draining to the point where the sulfur in the bottom, the sulfur related to oil areas in this county and in Liberty Township are affecting the taste and quality of the well water. Septic fields poison the ground. Once that ground is filled with those poisons they really aren’t usable for much of anything else ever again. A waste treatment facility is probably our best answer at this point and having a conservancy is really a God sent to us because it not only provides us with proper treatment of our septic affluent but it also will provide us with a reason not to be annexed by municipalities eager to provide those two services to a rural area. This allows us to be a little bit independent and to control our futures. Now are you asking me if I am saying this because I am in favor of development? No, I am not in favor of development. I bought my 25 acres. I have my rural setting. We didn’t like Fox Chase Farms when it came in. We were definitely unhappy about that. It increased our traffic. It increased the population of our schools. If the only answer is to develop, then it is our only answer. If you have a better answer or a better way for a land provider or a land owner to essentially secure his future to dispose of his property in a better way without condemning himself to a life of poverty then please come forward. Liberty Township is getting developed and it is a natural occurrence. I didn’t mention the livestock. This is a rural area. It is possibly going to be a former farm area. You have to expect manure to be spread on fields. You have to expect the smells of country life. You have to expect gardening, farming, livestock and noises in the morning. Mr. Read stated the burden of proof on a rezoning is on the petitioner. So they have to prove that the general welfare of the county is better served by the rezoning then leaving it as it is. This will have an impact on the schools and we are struggling whether or not we can consider the additions for schools in our decisions on rezoning. I would like to ask two quick questions of the petitioner. You were asked about the lot size and you gave dimensions and I would appreciate if you would translate that into acreage. Mr. Ferngren stated it is .185 acres for 60’ X 135’. Mr. Read stated we are talking less than an acre. Let’s round it off to 0.2 acres. Can someone from Fox Chase Farms tell me what is the average size of the lots there? A gentleman in the audience said .43.
Mr. Duffy stated I would guess that it is the tree line that runs the common lot line. I haven’t done a boundary on the property yet to determine the exact positions of the line. Mr. Read stated last time I looked at the site was yesterday with the petitioner’s engineer. I have a problem with the layout. I asked him why he put the detention basin on the highest part of that land and put the houses where the pond is. We didn’t solve it and it is solvable. Now for the zoning. The first thing I look at is the zoning of the surrounding area. On two sides, the south and the east, you have R-1. On the north and the west you have RR. The traffic is horrendous. Also, adjacent house values are a legitimate thing to look into. Drainage is a problem. I don’t think anything that you have said gives me confidence that it is solvable, certainly not with this layout that you have. The low area is to the south and also to the west. That tree line is going to have to be somewhat of a drainage swale of some kind. You are going to have to take care of drainage there without cutting down the trees. Mrs. Marshall stated I have several concerns. I know that this is only a concept drawing. This might not be what you end up in the subdivision. I too am concerned about where the retention or the detention area is up on the north side of this property. I am also concerned about that some drainage went through this property and went west. Now you want to bring the drainage down to the corner of Fox Chase Farms gather up that drainage and take it down to the ditch. That is changing the watershed and I don’t know whether that is going to be allowed. It might improve the drainage for Fox Chase Farms but there is no agreement there. I would like you, Mr. Ferngren, to enumerate the reasons for the change of the zoning. Mr. Ferngren stated I think that your ordinance indicates, the one that you recently adopted, that these zoning classifications are appropriately adjacent to each other. The A-1, the R-1 and the RR are all compatible types of uses. Mr. Read mentioned economical feasibility. I would agree that this is one of the components, but it is not economically feasible to provide sewer and water to this site with the type of the large lot development. It simply isn’t economically feasible. To not extend water and sewer into this area as part of the development would frustrate your UDO intent of providing water and sewer from municipal services if it is available. It is available right at the front door of this site. It is economically infeasible to extend it in there with the larger parcel sizes. The adjacent property will not be adversely affected. As Mr. Barko indicated these homes will be similar to those in Timberland and some of those homes are selling for an excess of $300,000. Your ordinance has built in protections from construction standards. All of these drainage problems that everyone is alluding to tonight will be thoroughly and exhaustedly researched and reviewed. Also, this developer has shown a willingness to solve drainage problems and not create them and on their own dime fixed a long standing problem at the Gaither on 900 N. and Meridian. The area is compatible. There is a lot of R-1 property abutting this including to the south and across the street to the east. Mrs. Marshall stated I would like to know why the staff report on this subdivision development plan and the one that you gave out tonight differ. Mr. Duffy stated on the east side of the road I believe that is going to be different from what you have. We received comments and one of the comments was to stay away from that hill the best we could. We did everything we could to preserve it. I presented that to the developer. I explained the general perception about that hill and it was his decision to have me modify the design to make it part of the open space. Mrs. Marshall stated so you put houses up on top of the hill. Mr. Duffy stated no, not at all. On the drawing that you have there was a road running along the outside of the bottom of the hill, which would have put homes along that road. The correct design that you see up there pushed that well to the north of the hill to make it part of the open space for the development. Mrs. Marshall stated in my opinion the rezoning is based simply on how much you are going to make. With the serious drainage problems…if the Plan Commission recognized what people are saying and didn’t want any more traffic they wouldn’t allow high density subdivision. Every house creates drainage. You cover up land and the water doesn’t have any place to go. So we are going to have additional drainage from this project. Plus we have to take care of some of the remaining drainage issues that we have from Timberland and from what has happened in Fox Chase Farms. I question whether you can take water out of one water shed and put it into another one. I also would like to know this connecting road between these two projects. The project that we are giving consideration for rezoning and the project on the other side. How are you going to get across Meridian Road? Are you going to have a bridge or a tunnel? Mr. Ferngren stated it will be an add grade crossing. Mrs. Marshall asked how many feet south of 900 N. and Meridian is that? So you are going to create another ingress egress onto Meridian Road. Mr. Ferngren stated yes. Mrs. Marshall stated you are going to create one south of there also. Mr. Ferngren stated yes. The northern most entrance is probably in the neighborhood of 700-feet to 1000-feet. Mrs. Marshall stated the ingress egress road off of Meridian; I know that the Plan Commission would like to have two entrances. Are you going to stub it off and have a turn-around or are you going to have a “T” thing because you don’t own that property. Mr. Ferngren stated temporarily there will be a “T” turn around there so the highway department trucks can get turned around because there is not a cul-de-sac proposed in there. Mrs. Marshall stated you are going to put in a “T” turn around so that buses and garbage trucks and UPS trucks can turn around. Mr. Duffy stated yes, that is required by your ordinance. Mrs. Marshall stated then that turn around is going to accommodate a fire truck and whatever. Mr. Ferngren stated it has to be designed to your ordinance standards. Mrs. Marshall stated we have talked about the farmer that owns this property. Have you given him an option to purchase this property? Are you legally entitled to be the petitioner in this action? Mr. Ferngren stated I believe that we are.
Mr. Duffy stated they actually signed the petition for the rezone. We have an option to purchase this property. Mrs. Marshall stated I want to talk about the Damon Run Conservancy District. In here you say that the waste water is going to the Portage Waste Water facility. Is that an agreement you have with Damon Run and Portage? Mr. Ferngren stated yes. Mrs. Marshall asked are you charging people for being in the Damon Run Conservancy at this time. Mr. Ferngren stated yes they are. Mrs. Marshall stated you said a price of $7.50 for… Mr. Ferngren stated there are user fees as part of our use ordinance for the amount of their sewage that was based on their consumption of water. The $7.50 was the user fee. Mrs. Marshall stated you would then have a $15.00 a month fee to pay. Mr. Ferngren stated yes, if you are connected to our system. Mrs. Marshall asked why is that payable through the South Haven Sewer plant? Mr. Ferngren stated it is not actually payable through South Haven Sewer. We have a contracting with the district with USC, United Services Corporation. They are a billing agency. The district does not have full time employees in place so they had to contract out an agency to send out… Mrs. Marshall asked is this the same one that South Haven uses or are you separate. Mr. Ferngren stated I don’t know who South Haven uses, but it may very well be the same. Mrs. Marshall stated if it is rezoned R-1 that you then have received a “no holes barred” thing to develop this property. There are a lot of questions that need to be answered. Mr. Ferngren stated we agree with that. Mrs. Marshall stated even though DLZ is going to review this I think that our Drainage Board needs to review it as far as the water that comes onto this property and the water that goes off. I think that we need to see those calculations. I would not like to see a formed letter from the Highway Department. Just keep them and don’t send them to me. It is the same thing. Traffic is going to increase. We figure so many cars per house. You need to get the Highway Department to address a letter as to some of the solutions that you can find in addressing the traffic issue because we have a railroad there and I have been up there when I have waited eight cars coming south the other day. This is kind of a country setting out there. Stop signs are not going to correct it and that is what we have there now. I would like to see a report from the Sheriffs Department as to how many accidents they have to go to out there. Commissioner Harper asked under our new ordinance how much of this are you required to have a buffer around. Mr. Ferngren stated along the roadway here it is 50-feet and then this is 30-feet. Commissioner Harper stated when you say buffer can that buffer just be open space or are you required to have any landscaping on it. Mr. Joseph stated 50-feet of common area between all lots and any interior or Collector Street and 30-feet of common area between all lots and other parent tract boundaries. Commissioner Harper asked is there anything required to be on the 30 and 50-feet. Mr. Breitzke stated if there intent is to also combine a little open space then yes they will have to do some kind of vegetive plantings or improve what they have. Commissioner Harper stated if it is not are they required to put anything in there. Mr. Breitzke stated I don’t think so. Mr. Joseph stated it does state that trees and shrubs shall be provided at the combined rate of 10 per 100 feet of perimeter planting. Commissioner Harper asked how does this parcel drain right now.
Commissioner Harper asked how does it drain through here. Is it drainage tiles? Commissioner Harper does some of it drain off onto Fox Chase Farms? Mr. Ray stated right. Commissioner Harper stated so some of it naturally flows south. Where else does it naturally flow? Mr. Ray stated that is it. A lot of it runs to the center hole and some of it goes south of these guys. Commissioner Harper stated if the drainage tile is working… Mr. Ray stated then some of it may go this way. Commissioner Harper stated under our ordinance can that water continue to go to the south on Fox Chase Farms. The answer is no. Am I right, Kevin? Mr. Breitzke stated you are correct, sir. Mr. Ray stated we would have to contain that we have as runoff on our property. We could not run the water on them. Commissioner Harper stated not the additional water. You can’t run any water on them. Mr. Ray stated right. Commissioner Harper stated so if you are running water on them now you have to present a drainage plan approved by an independent engineer under our recent statute that we pick and there can be no water go onto Fox Chase, unless you go to a lot owner and get an easement. Mr. Ray stated right. Commissioner Harper stated what about under our new ordinance and that drainage pipe that is going back to the west. Mr. Ferngren stated I think that under your ordinance that is a drainage way. Theoretically that could continue to be used but what I am hearing from Charlie that is not the goal here because that doesn’t sound like it is really working well. There are different ways to discharge water from property even after development. For instance a regulated drain you can continue to use that. If you have an easement or if there are nature… Commissioner Harper stated I think that it is important that these people understand in a way that I want to understand it, too. Are you telling me you are not going to run water to the west of this project? Mr. Ray stated no we wouldn’t. It is going west now and there is a field tile that does not work very well. Commissioner Harper stated so under our new ordinance even if you have water going on that guy to the west you cannot put water on his under our new ordinance. Mr. Ray stated that is correct. Commissioner Harper asked does any of the water go to the north. Mr. Ray stated no. Commissioner Harper stated if it does you have to stop that too, right? Mr. Ray stated yes. We have to contain all of the water and then run it off in a directed way. Anything that we would run off site we would have to have an easement to do that. Commissioner Harper stated or put it in a regulated drain or defined waterway. I assume some water is going to leave this project. So where are you taking it. Mr. Ray stated we are intending on bringing it down this way in through this structure through this development here. Commissioner Harper stated so all this scenario that we have been talking about today about water going south on Fox Chase if our new ordinance is followed and our independent engineers do the right kind of evaluation that can’t happen. Mr. Ray stated right.
Mr. Ray stated I don’t know. Commissioner Harper asked would you add to that. Mr. Ray stated we would not add to that. Mrs. Marshall asked when you bring the water back to this other parcel that you are going to develop how are you going to take it down there. Are you going to have a ditch down along the road? Mr. Ray stated we are looking at running it through the storm drainage system to here. It is not going to be through the ditch. Mrs. Marshall stated you will be adding to the water in Damon Run. Mr. Ray stated that is correct. The ditch will come down into our series of ponds and it will eventually get into Damon Run. So the water that went originally through the farm tile in this direction will now come this way. Much like the Gaither property where the water went this way and now it goes this way. Mrs. Marshall asked do you have to have permission from Army Corps or IDEM for running the water into Damon Run. Mr. Ray stated they would and in fact they were the ones that designed that… Mrs. Marshall stated I know what it is and I have all of the plans. Mr. Breitzke stated first to set the record straight the property where Timberland currently was at had been zoned R-1 at or before 1983. In fact, all the property was zoned R-1 all the way to CR 50 W. from CR 900 N. north and from Meridian east. Probably the most significant zoning change was for Fox Chase Farms and I don’t know the date. It was probably 1990 or there about. The other thing we need to make clear is that the county doesn’t approve a waste water treatment facility treatment system. That is prerogative of Indiana Department of Health and Indiana Department of Environmental Management. They looked over this wetland treatment system, which sometimes is questionable in cold weather climates. It is marginal here and apparently has a history of being marginal. One of the possibility’s we have talked off and on to the operator of the waste facility for Fox Chase Farms has the potential to hook onto the Damon Run Conservancy, which still has substantial capacity in their agreement with the City of Portage. We are really just looking at this parcel north of Fox Chase Farms. One of the abilities we have and one of the things we have commitments on is to solve many of these societal problems such as the drainage. There is an opportunity here to the benefit of the people in Fox Chase Farms particularly to solve a lot of drainage issues. We have tried several approaches, Mr. Ray and I, with trying to figure out alternatives to that pump at the corner of Gaither’s. That was the very last choice, but to follow through with their commitment and it took two and a half to three years we look every direction to deal with and every direction we had to figure out some way to work with neighbors. The system as it currently exists across John Dzur’s property that we are addressing; Loren Dzur I believe is on the east side has historically just ponded there. The drainage has been bad for a long, long time there also. Maybe eventually it gets to the north. I suspect a lot of time it just evaporates or even infiltrates at a much faster rate and we are talking about clay soils around here. It is not a very fast rate of infiltration. The pond will build up to a certain level, perhaps, and just keep shifting the water westerly but a lot of it is held up in those areas. They can’t drain a wetland per say. You can put overflows in to maintain levels. The theory of wetland ecology is to keep the soils moist but they don’t have to be under water, by definition maybe twenty days a year. The idea is that we keep the water moving in a positive controlled direction with detention and other apparatus that can control and treat the water and possibly have a better outcome with the water in this situation. I am concerned about traffic on Meridian. Meridian Road is a very busy road and a very fast road. Mr. Detert stated I guess when I past it on to Tim Cole was that when Bob Harper signed us to look into Timberland and some of their drainage Tim and I went out there and looked that area over pretty thoroughly. We didn’t stop with Timberland. Tim took me and showed me land that has caused denial of a farmer to farm because we put a subdivision in there. We did see where sump pump drainage was going right out to the end of the lot spewing onto the farmers’ field from almost every house. Then they explained to me that the farmer could not farm all of his ground because the subdivision couldn’t stand the manure that he was fertilizing with that close to their property. I think it was contamination of the wells.
Mr. Detert stated the encroachment of all these subdivisions is causing some harm in a direction that we didn’t think too thoroughly about a farmer being denied a portion of his land. I do have mixed emotions on this. I know the traffic on Meridian and CR 900 is horrendous but I also know that the encroachment of civilization is probably forcing this property owner to sell his land. This is a case that will not be decided by us but by the County Commissioners. Ours is only a recommendation. Mr. Detert moved to forward Case 07-Z-13 to the Board of Commissioners with a favorable recommendation. Mr. Cole seconded the motion, which carried on the following ballot vote:
Burns - No Cole - Yes Detert - Yes This case will be heard by the County Commissioners on November 20, 2007 at 6:00 p.m. Notice to the adjoining property owners for the rezone that is to go before the Commissioners must be mailed out ten (10) days before the Commissioners meeting by first class mail. Discussion on Pheasant Hills Subdivision. Mr. Breitzke stated I don’t see Mr. Worstell here tonight. What is the pleasure of the Board. Commissioner Harper moved to put a moratorium on building permits for Pheasant Hills Subdivision and to have our attorney get together a report for the next meeting on what type of bond we have left and what possible action could be taken against the subdivider of the bond for all the things that are not done out there. Mrs. Marshall seconded the motion, which carried on a unanimous roll call vote. At this time, there was a discussion on “T” turnarounds in subdivisions. Commissioner Harper moved to have our Planning Director along with our attorney to present this problem to Ground Rules and ask them within the next four week if they could give us some feedback as to whether there has been ordinances passed in other area to solve this kind of problem. Mr. Detert seconded the motion, which carried on a unanimous voice vote.
Here this evening is Tony Floramo and Don Plumb. Mr. Plumb stated I have nothing specific to report at this time. At the last meeting, there were some questions asked of me and I suggested that you ask the questions to Mr. Floramo. Mr. Burns asked what is the latest on the utilities. Mr. Floramo stated we have another Home Owners meeting and a Conservancy District meeting tomorrow starting at 6:00 p.m. at the Boone Grove High School. Mr. Hollenbeck will be giving his report relative to the status of the Conservancy District and the tax and what is happening there. At the last Conservancy District meeting the Conservancy District Board voted to have a single lot tax per lot equal to all lots divided by the debt service and it amounts to around $1700 per lot. Mr. Hollenbeck feels that it would be attached to the tax bill so that it will also give benefit of writing it off on your Federal Income Tax return. This is for 2008. Mr. Detert stated one of the pictures that we saw last time was the house that had the sewer problem. That house has all kinds of excess soil dumped on the side. There is a ravine there. When the builder dumps that excess dirt on there is that something that you don’t follow. Mr. Floramo stated he is installing a paver driveway and the grade from the side drive didn’t lend itself to get to the curb. He had built it up. As far as the trees, it is dangerously close to a lot that I still own. To answer your question, no I don’t condone that. There should be silt fences up and more importantly a retaining wall. It is going to wash out his driveway. I am going to make him put in a retaining wall. Mr. Detert stated you are going to make him put in a retaining wall. Mr. Floramo stated absolutely. Mr. Detert stated some of the roadways are crumbling and specifically the road that is opposite the sewer plant. Mr. Floramo stated I will take a look at that. Mr. Detert stated also between the main drive and … Mr. Floramo stated yes there is a patch right there.
Mr. Floramo stated I will get Mr. Capp to look at that and we are paving the pump station turnaround this season. When the trucks are there we are going to fill any smaller holes that accumulated. We will cut out that binder material and replace the lining. Mrs. Stevenson stated you are not going to put in the top coat for another year, right? Mr. Floramo stated we presented this to everybody and the consensus was to wait for more traffic. Mrs. Stevenson asked how is the front gate working? Mr. Floramo stated it isn’t. We are still trying to determine which residents ran it over during the tornado. Someone witnessed the car ram it four or five times. We are addressing that with the Home Owners Association. Mr. Breitzke asked Mr. Plumb are you in agreement that there was a power outage that stopped the working of the gate? Mr. Plumb stated yes. Mrs. Stevenson stated for the Home Owners Association fees what are you doing with the home owners that are not paying the fees? Mr. Floramo stated tomorrow night is the last straw. I will have in my hand a specific lien that is specific to association fees. Those leins are prepared per lot, they are notarized, they are executed and they are in front of everybody at the Home Owners meeting tomorrow. Tomorrow night they pay the bill or I will hand these to Mr. Plumb who has volunteered to take them down to the county and record them. Mr. Cole stated the only question that I have is concerning the silt that is built up in the road. It seems to me that this should have been swept up a long time ago. Mr. Read stated I have great concern and maybe it is the same house that Mr. Detert referred to, where the builder piled up a bunch of the excavating material into a wooded ravine with a water course at the bottom. I assume that the builder did that.
Mr. Floramo stated that lot was one of the bankruptcy lots. He had six bankruptcy homes. During the course of July another builder came in and took over the construction of that house to finish it. My observation of that problem was to build up the road, which is on his lot. He didn’t encroach onto the other lot. The comment was made to him was to place a retainer wall. At this time, there was a discussion regarding this house and the retaining wall. Mrs. Marshall stated I noticed in the last couple of weeks that the back gate is locked. Mr. Floramo stated yes. Mrs. Marshall asked how does one get in there to look at the subdivision. Mr. Floramo stated through the front gate. Mrs. Marshall stated I also see dump trucks hauling dirt. Are they hauling out of there? Mr. Floramo stated no. I can use all the dirt I can get. Commissioner Harper asked Mr. Plumb what did you tell us two weeks ago at our last meeting about the Kankakee Valley problem and how long it was trying to be solved. Mr. Plumb stated I think what I said had to do with the easements being in place for Kankakee to come in and place their lines in. I also said that there had been a communication problem. Commissioner Harper asked is that what happened? Mr. Floramo stated yes there is a communication issue and their main answer is do we have the spot to place our power. Commissioner Harper stated after our last meeting I asked Ray to call Kankakee Valley. Ray, what did Kankakee Valley tell you? Mr. Joseph stated I spoke with Mr. Sears and he said that he did contact them the day of the meeting and they were able to run power out there but the gate was not constructed to the point where they could run power to it. He also wanted power ran to a light post but the road wasn’t at grade for them to bring it in. The actual box wasn’t there for them to plug it into.
Commissioner Harper asked Mike has there been anything done about the erosion out there. Mr. Haller asked in general or specific. Commissioner Harper stated don’t we require builders in most of our subdivisions if they disturb the soil to either get the silt fences up or seed it. Mr. Haller stated yes to a certain extent. Commissioner Harper stated if we are just worried about the mud in the street for looks…I think why we are worried about the mud in the streets is because we are filling streams and we can’t unfill them. You have an IDEM man coming here tomorrow. Can you get him to go through this subdivision and give us a report? Mr. Haller stated sure. Commissioner Harper asked what was the name of the fellow who treated the lakes? Mrs. Marshall stated McNamara. Commissioner Harper asked is this the only person that has treated the lakes? Mr. Floramo stated yes. Commissioner Harper asked who pays him? Mr. Floramo stated the Home Owners Association. Commissioner Harper asked who from the Association contacts him to do that? Mr. Floramo stated I and Mrs. Ibetic called him in regards to problems with the lake. Commissioner Harper stated if I am going to have someone cut down the limbs of the trees on my property somebody, either my wife, my self or my kid or my handyman has to contact the guy to do the trees. I am asking who from your organization at the start of this summer contacted this man to do the lakes. Mr. Floramo stated I did.
Mr. Floramo stated there was an initial treatment and then every two weeks he goes out and treats it. Commissioner Harper asked has this been done this summer. Mr. Floramo stated to my knowledge yes. Commissioner Harper asked how much does he charge to do this. Mr. Floramo stated $4500 for the whole thing. Commissioner Harper asked are the aerators in? Mr. Floramo stated they are not functional. Commissioner Harper asked why are they not functional? Mr. Floramo stated there was a series of problems with the aerators and the electrical to them and my decision to the home owner’s last meeting was we would be pulling them out at the end of October. They need to be replaced and they are $5000 to $7000 apiece. We will do it the first sign of Spring. Commissioner Harper asked how many years ago were they put in. Mr. Floramo stated a year and a half to two years. Commissioner Harper stated they only worked two years. Mr. Floramo stated yes. Commissioner Harper asked who bought those. Mr. Floramo stated my entity did. Commissioner Harper stated you talked about this home owner fee. Do all the lots have to pay the home owners dues? Mr. Floramo stated the lots that are entitled meaning transferred to a third party. Commissioner Harper stated so yours don’t.
Commissioner Harper asked where is that wording. Mr. Floramo stated it is in our covenants. Commissioner Harper asked could you get a copy to my office within the next week. Mr. Floramo stated actually it is on line. Commissioner Harper asked what about the covers on the retaining walls. Mr. Floramo stated some of them are on. I can’t attest that they were all in place. Some may have been on skids and removed. They are not all on the wall. Commissioner Harper asked is that the home owner’s responsibility. Mr. Floramo stated no. I will take care of that per that engineering report. Commissioner Harper asked how long have the retaining walls been in. Mr. Floramo stated close to five years. Commissioner Harper asked how long have the caps not been on. Mr. Floramo stated I would imagine somewhere between now and then. Some of them are on and some of them are not. There are different positions relative to caps on retaining walls. The intent is to keep moisture from getting in there. Commissioner Harper asked do you have a full time worker in there.
Mr. Floramo stated we had a full time worker out there and as of today no. Commissioner Harper stated what legal paper work has been done to put this plan into effect for the $1700 a lot. Mr. Floramo stated I would have to defer that to Mr. McClure and Mr. Hollenbeck. Attorney McClure stated I haven’t seen any paper work on that. Commissioner Harper stated you did have a Conservancy District meeting where you at least passed a resolution. Mr. Floramo stated yes sir. Commissioner Harper stated I would like a copy of that within a week. Mr. Breitzke stated I am getting at the point where I am concerned with winter snow fall. Bob raises a lot of other good points too. We need this paper work in the Plan Commission office and in Mr. Harper’s hands. One of the things that I am still waiting to see is RW Armstrong did have a long list of things and pictures etc. Have you compiled a list of corrections and something that we can see with comparative photographs, side by side and kind of a history of these corrections so at least we know we are not spinning our wheels and we are moving forward? I believe that we are but I think you still need to maintain some kind of paper record. Mr. Floramo stated at the last meeting Mr. Capp generated for the sub-committee the 213 items that were identified and the status of those items. I am pretty positive there were no pictures that correlated back to each item. He placed the time frame on those items as to when the corrections were going to be completed. Mr. Breitzke stated I appreciate that but I am just suggesting that it is always helpful to have dated photograph that will help support your effort. Commissioner Harper asked how much silt fence have you guys put up this summer. Mr. Floramo stated we had silt fence that was down in the areas that were needed of silt fence and my maintenance individual who was out there pulled that up off the ground and…
Mr. Floramo stated I reinstalled silt fence that was down. Commissioner Harper asked did you install any new silt fence this year. Mr. Floramo stated new fabric, no. Commissioner Harper asked did you seed any areas that were barren this year. Mr. Floramo stated no. We had a hydro seed contractor that was scheduled to go out and address a day or two days and have an estimation. This was presented in August and he thought that the weather wasn’t conducive for hydro seeding to actually take. I asked him that day when was the best time and he said the end of September or October is a better time to hydro seed. For the schedule that we submitted he is on the schedule for the month of October to do those areas that were identified in the Armstrong report. Commissioner Harper stated so here we are getting down to the end of October and it is the best time to hydro seed. Mr. Floramo stated that is what I was told. Commissioner Harper stated would you ask the IDEM guy to give us an opinion on that also. I also want to ask you this Mike, would you contact someone from Fish and Wildlife and see if they can give us an opinion on what is going on out there. Mr. Plumb did you hear our attorneys answer to the paper work that he has seen so far.
Mr. Plumb stated yes. Attorney McClure stated what you are referring to is the full disclosure and there was quite a bit of communication between myself and Mr. Hollenbeck and Mr. Bower. What Mr. Harper is asking specifically is concerning the paper work that needs to go to the circuit court to get the conservancy district tax rate changed to a flat rate. Mr. Floramo stated I will have Mr. Hollenbeck prepare that.
Attorney McClure stated our understanding at the last meeting was that there was a conservancy district meeting and there was a vote and the vote was for that. At this point in time we are waiting for the paper work to be completed and the circuit court judge to sign it. Mr. Detert stated my observation over the summer is that we are not taking fast enough action against the builders who are violating the covenants. There is an awful lot of builder problems that we are not responding to. Mr. Cole moved to have Falling Waters back in two weeks. Mr. Read seconded the motion, which carried on a unanimous voice vote. Mr. Breitzke stated there will be a meeting with DLZ specific to their drainage review procedure but also on some modifications we asked them to check into on the Storm Water Manual. Patti will be calling you to set up a time that we can get together. Mr. Joseph stated he and Mike have been working on the as built ordinance. I have provided a list of the things that could possibly be on the ordinance. If anyone has any other questions or comments or would like to add anything more to it please let me know. At this time, there was a moment of silence to mark the passing of State Representative Jack Clem who was also the Code Enforcement Officer for the Planning and Building Departments. There being no further business the meeting adjourned at 10:30 p.m.
Attest: Robert W. Thompson Jr. AICP, Executive Director/County Planner |
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October 10, 2007