PORTER COUNTY PLAN COMMISSION

Regular Meeting
April 11, 2007

M I N U T E S

    The regular meeting of the Porter County Plan Commission was held on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 at 6:30 p.m. in the Porter County Administrative Center, 155 Indiana Ave., Suite 205, Valparaiso, Indiana.

    Those members present were Rick Burns, Tim Cole, Robert Detert, Commissioner Bob Harper, Todd Hutson, Elizabeth Marshall, Herb Read, Rita Stevenson and Kevin Breitzke, President. Staff members present were Robert W. Thompson Jr., Attorney Scott McClure, Patricia S. Gibson and Fred Siminski.

    Mr. Detert moved to waive the reading of the January 24, 2007 minutes and approve them as received in the mail.  Mr. Hutson seconded the motion, which carried on a unanimous voice vote.   

    Mr. Detert moved to waive the reading of the March 14, 2007 minutes and approve them as received in the mail.  Mr. Hutson seconded the motion, which carried on a unanimous voice vote.

    Mr. Detert moved to waive the reading of the March 28, 2007 minutes and approve them as received in the mail.  Mr. Hutson seconded the motion, which carried on a unanimous voice vote.

Old Business:

    At this time, Mr. Thompson read a letter from the developers of Cherry Hill Subdivision requesting a continuance to the April 25 meeting, because they are working out drainage issues with DLZ Engineering.

    Commissioner Harper moved to continue Case 07-P-1 to the April 25, 2007 meeting. Mr. Burns seconded the motion, which carried on a unanimous roll call vote.

    At this time, Mr. Thompson read a letter from Redfish Development requesting a continuance to the May 9, 2007 because they are still working out drainage issues with DLZ Engineering.

    Commissioner Harper moved to continue Case 07-P-6 to the May 9, 2007 meeting.  Mr. Burns seconded the motion, which carried on a unanimous roll call vote.

    Mr. Thompson stated the petitioner will have to notify the interested parties by first class mail of the continuance.

New Business:

    At this time, Mr.  Breitzke read the rules of conduct for a public hearing.

    Case 07-P-9.  Petition of Shirley A. Rainford, Revocable Living Trust, 645 W. 450 N., Hobart, Indiana seeking primary plat approval for Rainford Subdivision to be located at 645 W. 450 N., in Union Township, Porter County, Indiana. (To contain 4 lots on 20 acres. Property is zoned RR.)

    John Hannon stated I am with Great Lakes Engineering and I am representing Shirley Rainford.  This is a 20 acre parcel. The property at one time was zoned Industrial and we petitioned to have it rezoned to Rural Residential.  My client proposes to develop the property into four lots. There are two existing houses on the property.  The proposal is to have those two houses both be on a lot themselves and then up to the north of the property there is a proposal for two more houses.  There is 10% or two acre set aside for open space. There is a 40 foot right-of-way along both CR 650 W. and CR 450 N.  They have been to the Drainage Board and received approval. We have submitted the soil borings. Drainage is not a problem here.  We are showing building lines that work their way around the existing houses and my guess is will be a discussion item here. The existing farm house measures about 38 feet from CR 650 W. and is about 57 feet back from CR 450 N. 

    No one spoke in favor of this petition.
   
    No one spoke in opposition to this petition.

    The public hearing was then closed.

    Mr. Burns asked could you explain the building lines.

    Mr. Thompson stated if you notice on the two lots here, lots 1 and 2, they are down in the very corner of the intersection.  Those are existing structures and existing houses there. By the time we get with the right-of-way dedication according to the Plan Commission they do not have the proper distance. If we had the 40 foot building line the structures would be well in front of it.  So we asked them they had a choice of either realizing these are going to be non-conforming where if something happened we weren’t going to be issuing any kind of permits for remodeling or you can request a waiver for these structures.

    Mr. Detert stated I have no questions.

    Mr. Hutson stated these are going to be on wells and you have to know where you are going to be placing the wells on this particular property.

    Mr. Hannon stated on the two new lots we do not know.

    Mr. Hutson asked is the field east of you going to continued being farmed. 

    Mr. Hannon stated yes, absolutely.

    Mr. Hutson stated just be aware that in some of my research let’s say for example, if a farm is going to use some atrazine pre-mixes he has to actually can’t apply that within 50-feet of a well.

    Mrs. Stevenson stated I have no questions.

    Mr. Cole asked are there any plans in the near future to widen either CR 450 N. or CR 650 W.

    Commissioner Harper stated not that I know of.

    Mr. Read asked what is the purpose of the dedication.

    Mr. Thompson stated it is dedicated to the County Commissioners for the purposes of a public right-of-way for utilities and maintenance of ditches and roads.

    Mr. Read asked how many total acres do you have here.

    Mr. Hannon stated 20 acres.

    Mr. Read stated where you say dedicated open space does the dedicated open space include these two dashed areas.

    Mr. Hannon stated no.

    Mr. Read asked can you explain what no access easement means.

    Mr. Hannon stated that means that no driveways are permitted across that part of the property.

    Mr. Read stated there is a note about future swales for perimeter drains. Do you mean perimeter drains for the mound systems.

    Mr. Hannon stated yes.

    Mr. Read stated your perimeter drain would drain toward this area outlined on your drawing.

    Mr. Hannon stated yes.

    Mr. Read asked is it the intent for the developer to put more houses on this than what is shown.

    Mr. Hannon stated no.

    Mr. Read stated I want to see the correct wording for the open space on the drawing and ran past our counsel.

    Mrs. Marshall stated lot 1 has ingress egress off of both roads, doesn’t it?  Will that remain?

    Mr. Hannon stated the proposal was for the existing configuration of lot 1 to remain the same.

    Mrs. Marshall asked is the dedicated open space going to be farmed.

    Mr. Hannon stated no.

    Mrs. Marshall stated I am concerned about the lot that consists of 12 acres.  I think that the person that buys that house lot I think we should be looking at future development and we are back to the metes and bounds sell off.

    Commissioner Harper asked has the drainage plans met our ordinance and if DLZ would have met them would everything have been done that should have been done on these drawings.

    Mr. Breitzke stated the comments that you are looking at on Cherry Hill were for the order of asking where are these things.  With this I would say yes.  Additionally, one of the reasons you won’t see additional building is that this is a hydric soil pewamo, which really isn’t suitable for foundations and absolutely out of the question for septic fields.  We are also looking at the water from offsite coming through the middle of lot 3.

    Commissioner Harper asked how is the drainage going to work on this thing.

    Mr. Breitzke stated they have a large wetland area.

    Commissioner Harper asked what about water quality into that wetland area.  Was that addressed.

    Mr. Breitzke stated that helps with the water quality.

    Commissioner Harper stated if they had a review by DLZ they would have everything that DLZ ask for.

    Mr. Breitzke stated with the one exception.

    Mr. Breitzke stated there are a couple of issues that we still have to work out before final plat was the condition and sizing of the pipe outletting down below.  The other thing I would still like to see is an easement from lot 4 down that swale so at least we protect and preserve that all the way to the outlet. One of the things that we will talk about more is the off-site water and making sure that there is a bypass because as that water is coming onsite…you are right Mr. Commissioner one of the issues that we are always concerned about with these areas is water quality but bare in mind that most of the water is coming in from offsite onto this property.

    Mrs. Marshall asked is there any drainage that might be coming off the old Wheeler dump.

    Mr. Hannon stated no.

    Mr. Burns moved to approve Case 07-P-9. Mr. Cole seconded the motion, which carried on the following ballot vote:

    Burns   -   Yes   Cole      -   Yes   Detert    -   Yes
    Harper  -   Yes   Hutson    -   Yes   Marshall  -   No
    Read    -   No    Stevenson -   Yes   Breitzke  -   Yes

    Case 07-Z-6.  Petition of Keith Freyenberger, c/o Lee I Lane, Hoeppner, Wagner & Evans LLP, 103 E. Lincolnway, Valparaiso, Indiana for a proposed amendment to the Master Plan to rezone a parcel of land from AG, Agriculture & Open Space to RR, Rural Residential to be located on the East side of CR 450 E. between CR 700 S. and SR 8, in Pleasant Township, Porter County, Indiana.

    Lee Lane stated I represent Keith and Valerie Freyenberger and they wish to rezone a parcel of land from Agriculture to Rural Residential.  Mr. Freyenberger has petitioned the Plan Commission in the past for rezoning and for clarification this is not the same piece of land. Issues from the previous rezone petitions will be discussed and hopefully alleviated today.  This is not spot zoning. The land around this has already been subdivided. Mr. Freyenberger is not going to expand on this property.  The other property that he or his wife owned has been sold and the new owner does not object to the rezoning. This particular piece of land is Mr. Freyenberger’s least productive land as a farmer.  Another concern was drainage issues. At this time, Ms. Lane read a letter from the engineer, Bill Rensberger, explaining the drainage. At this time, Ms. Lane read a letter from John McQuestion from Soil Solutions concerning the soil on the property.  There will be three to four homes a year in this subdivision.  Mr. Freyenberger will develop this property himself.

    No one spoke in favor of this petition.

    David W. Sharp, 483 E. SR 8, Kouts. His property is adjacent to this petition. Concerned about traffic on CR 450 E. and SR 8. What size are the lots and how many homes will be built. Also, concerned on the drainage.

    Karyl VanDyke, 806 S. 450 E., Kouts.  Her property is kiddy-corner from this property.  Her concerns are added traffic onto SR 8.

    Darl Jarnecke, 487 E. SR 8. Every house in the past ten years has been put on a mound system. Will they have mound systems in this subdivision. How many times can a person petition for a rezoning. 

    Mr. Thompson stated if the petition is denied he has to wait a period of one year before a petition can be refilled. But there is no limitation as far as how many times someone can apply.

    Mr. Jarnecke stated he is concerned about how closely this development will be monitored.  He is concerned about the Hannon Ditch being used as part of the green space. Can they do this? How will this be addressed under the new county ordinance. Has the Board looked at any of his other subdivisions.

    Glenn Hefner, 486 E. SR 8.  He is concerned about the drainage.

    Roger Martin, 1405 E. Indiana.  His concern is that he has a 150 cow dairy farm two miles west of this parcel.  He also is concerned about his 275 head of livestock, which can go up to 300 head.  He spent over $100,000 on the storage facility.  There is a big concern when the wind is out of the north.  His concern is people complaining about the smell from his farm.

    June Hefner, 486 E. SR 8.  She agrees with everything that has been said.

    Sharon Agee, 464 E. SR. 8.  Her concern is the drainage.

    Craig Snyder, 169 Lee Dr.  His concern is the drainage. Mr. Snyder submitted pictures of the Hannon Ditch.

    Stephanie Wicke, 171 W. 700 N.  What will the new owner of the 20 acres that Mr. Freyenberger sold off to the north do with this property.  She is also concerned about the traffic.

    Ms. Lane stated the concerning the issues about the traffic on SR 8 most of the traffic that they are experiencing are traffic that does not intend to stop in front of their homes and the residential areas where they exist or to slow down or in any way to yield to other traffic in the area because they are just passing through on a State Highway.  This is expected on a road like that unless there is an intersection.  This has nothing to do with Mr. Freyenberger’s property. Traffic that would be associated with potential home owners in Mr. Freyenberger’s subdivision would be people who would not be speeding down the highway and causing traffic. They would be people who would be slowing down to enter into the subdivision or to make a turn onto CR 450 to enter the homes that exist on that side of the road.   There are six lots located on CR 450 E. There will be no homes with basements. Concerning the drainage, the proposed green area and the detention pond area is intended to alleviate the water problem.

    Mrs. Agee stated she is concerned that this might be a gateway if you get this rezoned in developing other parcels.

    Mr. Sharp asked what does “This is it” mean?

    Mrs. VanDyke stated they don’t excel on CR 450 E. She is concerned on pulling off of CR 450 E. onto SR 8. 

    Mr. Snyder asked who’s responsibility is it for the maintenance of the detention pond.

    Mr. Breitzke stated there are multiple owners of those things.  Some of them are personal property. They are the definitely the bride of the owner.  Some are the Property Owners Association, some the Drainage Board did take over.  I am interested regardless because they will cumulatively will add up to problems for us.

    Ms. Wicke stated you didn’t address the question of the 20 acres that you sold to the north that you first petitioned for. What are the new owners plans for development?

    Jim Wolfe, Post-Tribune.  The number of houses were not addressed.

    Ms. Lane stated anyone else that may want to develop their property into a subdivision will have to come to this Plan Commission for a rezoning just as Mr. Freyenberger.  This is a forty acre parcel and the number of lots he is proposing is 18 lots that will be 1.5 acres each.  This is subject to change. There will be no other expansion of development by Mr. Freyenberger into other areas.

    The public hearing was then closed.

    Mr. Burns stated my concern is the drainage.

    Mr. Hutson stated this is a strong agricultural area. Does Soil Solutions say that those are not considered hydric soils.

    Mr. Freyenberger stated you understand that the hydric soils are right next to the ditch and that is where the green areas are at and where the filter strips are going to be built.  This is not a wet area.  That is why I picked this property.  It is great for development and that is why I keep coming back.

    Mr. Hutson asked have you developed in the past.

    Mr. Freyenberger stated yes.  I developed Rilestone Point, Aaron Estates over by Hebron, a little mini-sub south of Kouts, Cains Corner.

    Mr. Hutson stated I have a hesitation putting something like that in a strong agricultural area.

    Mr. Detert stated I have concerns with the water problems and the traffic problems.     I think we ought to keep it agricultural.

    Mrs. Stevenson stated I have no questions and everything has been covered.  I too, think that this should stay agriculture.

    Mr. Cole stated I have concerns with the traffic. All of the small lots along SR 8 are every one of these single parcels and do they have homes on them.

    Ms. Lane stated yes to the best of my knowledge.

    Mr. Cole stated we do realize that these small lots are probably the result of an abandon railroad confining those properties to essentially no other use except subdividing into small lots.  It wasn’t the nature of a subdivision coming before the Plan Commission and we agreeing to small lots. In looking at this some of those other parcels are actually relatives of the farmer who lived on that and farmed that ground originally and he simply gave away some acreage to the children to live nearby. Thirty years ago I think maybe the attitude of the Plan Commission and the ordinances that existed probably did allow for some of this development.  Let me say that at this point I think it was a mistaken vision of the future.    There was a question and I don’t believe it was answered.  It was concerning the open space on your concept drawing centered over the ditch, which has about 150 feet of easement throughout that open space.  Are you using the County’s easement for open space.

    Ms. Lane stated Mr. Freyenberger owns it, so yes.

    Mr. Cole stated I guess we would have to consider that.  I don’t know with the Drainage Board how happy are they that this could come under an open space ordinance. The traffic is a big concern. I am concerned about the six driveways on CR 450 E. This is an agricultural area. This is really congested living in a rural area. This is the wrong subdivision in the wrong area. Because of that, I don’t see that the rezoning is necessary.

    Mr. Read stated this should stay agricultural. I am concerned about the traffic problem. We really don’t know enough about the drainage and how the problems would be solved.  With regards to the Open Space Ordinance, the area eligible for open space prohibits using areas that are set aside for other uses or you can’t build anything anyway such as a NIPSCO right-of-way, a pipeline and specifically drainage. 

    Mrs. Marshall stated I understand that this is only a concept, however, it falls short in some of the rules.  Is the Hannon Ditch a regulated drain?

    Ms. Lane stated yes.

    Mrs. Marshall stated you are going to have six driveways that will be off of CR 450 E. and on road off of SR 8 that is going to support 12 houses.  This is not a good spot for a subdivision.  This should remain agriculture.

    Commissioner Harper stated Mr. Jarnecke asked about the drainage.  I don’t think this is a drainage issue.  I think this is an improper place for the zoning.

    Commissioner Harper moved to forward Case 07-Z-6 to the County Commissioners with an unfavorable recommendation.  Mrs. Marshall seconded the motion, which carried on the following ballot vote:

    Burns   -    Yes   Cole      -   Yes   Detert    -   Yes
    Harper  -    Yes   Hutson    -   Yes   Marshall  -   Yes
    Read    -    Yes   Stevenson -   Yes   Breitzke  -   Yes
    This will be heard by the County Commissioners on May 15, 2007 at 6:00 p.m.

    Discussion on Falling Waters Subdivision.

    Mr. Breitzke stated Falling Waters developer, Tony Floramo, regrets that he can’t be here this evening.  He stated he wants to be here at the May 9, 2007 Plan Commission meeting. He stated what I suggest that we do is ask Mr. Floramo to appear again on May 9, 2007 so he can face the fire. He stated tonight we will offer the opportunity for the citizens here tonight, if they have some questions, to do so but to also come back for the May 9 meeting.

    At this time, the Commission passed around a sign up sheet for the property owners of Falling Waters.

    Dr. Peter E. Gutierrez, 729 Cirque Ct., Falling Waters, Crown Point, Indiana.  We have a back gate that was locked and an emergency vehicle, particularly if an ambulance has to use, they are going to loose five minutes opening, even if they have the key.  Now five minutes is 5% of the time that is available to alleviate a heart attack.  You have 120 minutes to give this man or this woman TPA.  We have to waste at least five minutes opening that gate if they have a key.  Floramo told us that the fire department had a key.  When Mr. Jones’ house burnt, we found out that the fire department didn’t have a key. They had to take the gate down.  We think that gate ought to be opened.

    Joan Kenevan, 87 Levanno Drive, Falling Waters.  She stated we have had issues and we have sat back and waited for something to happen and it hasn’t.  This Falling Waters subdivision is in a Crown Point address but actually it is Porter Township, Porter County.  In 2003 there was a Governor’s Award that is called “Floramo Partners for Falling Waters/Porter County Planning Commission.”  It says, “To accommodate development, Porter County’s Plan Commission, in partnership, with Floramo Partners, aims to maintain its’ rural by design character. The Commission tries to direct roads to existing centers or corridors where infrastructure is available.”  Okay, that all sounds good, but it is not happening.  I have pictures.  At this time, Ms. Kenevan submitted pictures to the Plan Commission members. This is the pothole.  This would qualify as a sink hole. These potholes haven’t been fixed and they were supposed to be.  Here is the stop sign that has been run over or hit and never been fixed.  Here you have a street light that doesn’t have a street light but just the fixture.  The ones that are there don’t work.  There are five in my neighborhood that don’t work and they said it was because, I don’t know what.  The reason is because they don’t have a lens and that is what covers the bulb.  We have a beautiful place but it is a diamond in the rough but they aren’t taking care of it.  There are port-a-potty’s sitting on the street, the main street.  Here is your drainage.  Here you have a house and you have a…what do you call those things? You know, where the water is supposed to go.  It doesn’t go there.  It is just sitting there. It is lot 90 and Floramo Partners owns it.  It is not Bruce Young with G.C. Custom Homes.  This is Floramo Partners. We actually looked it up and that is where it is.  You can see all of this water. This is the where I don’t believe they got a permit for the pool. You can see here where this pool, the cement backs right up to the next lot. It is just sitting there. That causes problem for the guy behind it.  So he is digging out the ditch.  It is like the Wild West out there.  There is no accountability out there. Here you have high tech wire, or whatever you call it, just sitting there. Here is debris, here is debris and here is debris.  They were supposed to have won some Governor’s award.  The Plan Commission went along with this, whoever was on it.  I count of hold you a little responsible for what is going on out there and I can tell by tonight that you are a conscientious Body.  They let these people build these big houses and the guy goes bankrupt.  There is thievery out there. They are stealing building supplies.

    Mike Berta, 59 Levanno Drive.  I certainly don’t want to repeat some of the things that were said or that were said before I arrived.  I believe my wife and I are maybe the second longest resident of Falling Waters.  I need to express to you five items that I think capture what our concerns are.  Three of them deal with safety.  The other two are items that I believe this Board would have the ability to answer for me and perhaps other residents. Number one, from the very beginning of occupying our home there have been water pressure issues in the subdivision. Those had been rectified over the past couple of years but none the less to make a long story short the developer told me over and over again that the ownership of the water pressure issues and by definition the water pressures were you would be in the shower and the water would go out or the toilets wouldn’t flush. It would be corrected and it would be fine for a period of time and then this would occur again. Obviously, you have heard about the fire that occurred recently.  It was confirmed once again that we have water pressure issues in Falling Waters but this time it resulted in a house being destroyed.  The developer repeatedly has said over those four years that it is not the developers issue. He has done or the company has done what was needed to be done to solve the problem.  It is American Water.  In conversation with American Water’s representative pointed the finger back at the developer and said, “We have done everything we can do until the developer does the proper hook up of the booster pump that feeds the subdivision.”  I am not an engineer.  I am asking you folks to take some accountability of after four years to do something so that we residents don’t face this issue again.  Secondly, until approximately six months we had no land phone lines there.  I don’t know what ownership this Board has of such a communication system and if you don’t tell me that you don’t and I won’t waste your time.  But none the less, many of us, and I will speak for myself, went through the computers that we had to hook up to a system called Vontage.  You run your phone system through the computer lines.  The problem with that is in an emergency situation not only 911 can be routed to a number of locations and as evidence the fire that we had it was routed to Lake County and by the time it was routed back to the proper station the fire was basically out of control.  I know that Vontage is the owner of that problem.  I would suspect though, that a Body such as this, knowing that throughout the County there other subdivisions and other residents who have this issue with Vontage.  Perhaps some communication from a Body such as yours would assist residents in having Vontage would act to a better 911 system.  This was a fire and that is bad enough.  We also know through a meeting that we had with No. 3 with the Volunteer Fire Department that in an emergency situation absent a land line, please understand that I don’t want to mislead you, we do have access to land lines now.  NITCO is a phone system that we can purchase and that is a decision we would have to make. But with the absence of phone land line for over three years and then purchasing what we had through Vontage, the first step and I think you would think it is a logical one, to see if the company would respond to a 911 system for a system that we already have rather than have to purchase a new one.  The safety issues in addition to the one’s I have stated the deep sinking of portions of the road. For approximately three months I had a fifteen to twenty yard section of road in front of my home including the driveway sink approximately three and a half feet into the ground.  It took the better part of six weeks to get the developer to respond to that.  It has been taken care of.  That was two and a half years ago.  But it is a symptom of what you are hearing is a problem.  I had to put saw horses out there as emergency signals to go around this thing so that at night somebody wouldn’t drive into that.  The lighting is poor. I heard reference to the north gate off of Division Road.  I will tell you this that in meetings with the developer we were told that the gate would be open during the day, the gate would be locked at night, the fire department would be provided with a key to that lock as well as the emergency response paramedics. At the meeting, after the fire, with the emergency response personnel, we were told that they were never given a key to that gate.  We were also told by the developer prior to this incident of the fire that maps would be provided to emergency personnel.  In a subdivision like ours that is being developed maps of the subdivision for emergency personnel would know where to go.  The night of that fire there was confusion because they did not know where to go.  We found out after the fact that there were no maps ever provided.  You have evidence of vandalism that occurs in that subdivision. We have evidence that there is repeated theft of construction equipment, damaged to construction equipment.  The fourth issue is I have never, and I have been to a number of meetings seeking information on a $10,000,000 bond that was issued through the developer for whatever reason. I understand that part of it may be for the improvement of the infrastructure. I am asking you if not tonight at some point if you know a: what this $10,000,000 was approved for.  I would appreciate knowing what that money is to be spent on because I believe as residents ultimately we are going to pay that money back in one way, shape or form, we are going to be billed to pay that money back.  I think it is only logical that I would know as a homeowner what my portion of that money is going to go for.  I have asked and I don’t know because I have not been informed.  There is a Home Owners Association.  The POA is not representative of the residents of that development.  It is the developer and his associates.  I think that is not part of what a democracy is supposed to be.  I have been to every home owners meeting that has been held and I will speak for myself and I am not a young kid but I am blowing off like a young kid.  There is no input, there is no representation.  It is the developer and his associates.  There is a conservancy district.  There is not residential representation on the conservancy district.  I have no idea the dollars that are spent on that conservancy district what the status of improvement or lack of improvement is I have to believe that this $10,000,000 bond was issued for at least in part for that conservancy district. Again, I don’t know that you have the authority to deal with these two issues of representation.  I think it gives you a profile of what…my frustration is to not be able to speak to a group that represents an association because there is no input.  It is give me the money and shut up.  Number five, Mrs. Kenevan mentioned the word accountability.  I am accountable for what I do on my job.  I suspect that you folks are accountable for what you do on your jobs. I see no accountability and I hope I am profiling for you as clearly as I can the lack of accountability here.  With no representation, with no details of what safety…being misled and even lied to over the years this is going to happen and then others as firemen and paramedics tell us that this never occurred. The element of trust really erodes.  I wouldn’t be here tonight talking to you if I felt that there was some other recourse to have these things corrected.  The last thing that I want to have is for my wife to try to contact the paramedics that her husband can’t breathe and that call goes out to west Lake County somewhere or it goes to the right station and they can’t find the place because trying to be proactive never occurred.

    Pete Kovacik, 758 Medwin Way, Crown Point.  My concern here tonight is about the roads.  From what I know about roads, I know the pothole issue has been addressed.  My concern is that the coat that we have now, Mr. Floramo keeps saying that he doesn’t want to put the top coat down while there is still construction taken place and that makes good sense to me.  However, the binder that is down on the roads right now that is failing, I don’t know enough about roads to know whether it is the base that is failing or if it is the binder layer that is failing.  Which ever layer is failing causes me great concern as a homeowners and a neighborhood of 407 homes of which about 60 homes are only in the neighborhood.  If we are responsible for paving eight miles of road or whatever we have that runs through there, it will be devastating for the 60 homes that are in that neighborhood. First off I want to know who is responsible for the repair of the roads and at what point does that get turned over to us as homeowners or will it always be a county issue even though we are a private development.  The second issue and again it is a safety issue, the street signs in our neighborhood the fire department is complaining that they are not reflective.  Is that an issue that we as homeowners have to address or is that a developer issue?

    Joel Gloden, 759 Medwin Way, Crown Point.  We actually have the backyard to the home that is next to the pool.  Along with that there is a basketball court to and we have some concern about that.  Other than that, we agree with what has been said.  We want to know whether there were permits gotten for the pool and the basketball court.

    Omi Gloden, 759 Medwin Way, Crown Point.  I don’t know necessarily if there is encroachment because we have had it surveyed since then.  But I think that there are boundary’s set, if I am not mistaken you have to have so many feet. As of now, if we were to put a fence in where we should put a fence in, we couldn’t because of this basketball court.  I think he didn’t get a permit for the pool or the court and because of that we are limited to what we can do on our property legally. I would love for someone to answer that question.

    Ron Willingham, 778 Cirque Dr., Crown Point. I agree with everything that has been said tonight.

    Cheryl Ivetic, 66 Morena Terrace, Crown Point.  We also have been residents probably one of the longest or one of the first into the subdivision.  From the very beginning we have nothing but concerns for our family and children.  We have given Mr. Floramo multiple phone calls have been guided as to him being right on it and he was taking care of matters.  We have been pretty patient and I think that we have kind of sat back and kind of gave him the benefit of the doubt that what he was telling us wasn’t just what we wanted to hear but something that he was going to act on.  Two and a half years later here we stand with nothing that we have been informed of as far as progress that he promised to us.  We have 43 to 46 inch potholes throughout that neighborhood.  We are on our third tire from hitting these. I have had my daughter from hitting the pothole hurt her neck.  These things exist.  You drive through the dark you drive through the night currently we have fourteen street lights that are out as of the 8th of April.  We have potholes that continue throughout the subdivision to the back hole that was mentioned earlier. That monster hole in the back is fourteen (14) feet long, nine (9) foot wide and almost ten (10) inches deep. There is no vehicle that I know that can make their way over that without sustaining either damage to your car or injury to the person in it, especially if that is in the night.  We have electrical boxes that are laying open with exposed wires. There are children in this neighborhood.  Fortunately, my children are old enough to know better than to approach anything that they see like this.  But there are a lot of families in here that represent children that wouldn’t know any better and this is danger waiting to happen. We have at least twelve (12) feet and I know it is higher of falling retaining wall bricks that have been apparently not placed properly to prevent them from caving in and falling.  These bricks and if you tour again the subdivision you will see for yourself that this too is a safety hazard for any child that goes near this wall and is going to play by it or climb on it or whatnot.  The street lights as I mentioned, fourteen (14) of them are currently out so if there was any need for any medical service and being a nurse I too have to agree with Doc, I watched my current next door neighbors house burn down.  It was probably the most disturbing and frightening thing that I have had to watch. But the next morning when I tried to make sense of that whole situation the lack of response, the lack of water I took a step back and said this isn’t their unfortunate day.  This is a happy day because God forbid it would’ve been Bob or his wife that had been stricken with a heart attack or a serious medical condition, as we know in the medical profession timing is everything in the response to our neighbors and to our friends. They wouldn’t have gotten that that night. If that did unfortunately occur neither one of them would be with us tonight.  They were fortunate to get their three children and themselves out of that home.  We have been speaking of this for days, for weeks, for months, for years and nobody wants to hear it. We lived in Lake County and we came to Porter County because we felt secure in Porter County.  We wanted to get out of Lake County.  We come into Porter County and this is what we are faced with.  We are asking you to help us because we are so limited as to what we can do as residents.  It has been a very difficult thing to accept.  We only have so much say.  These lamp posts also have falling glass.  The bulbs are out with big pieces of glass laying next to it. God forbid if anyone’s child rides a bike or goes walking down the street when one of these happen to fall there could be a serious injury.  In case of an emergency and you had to locate a fire hydrant, go out there and see if you can find our fire hydrants.  We have this fire hydrant, and if you can see the curb up here, it is located more than four feet below the curb.  We have them hidden in mounds of dirt.  And if you find them, try to get them to work because the night that we needed the water for our neighbors there was water but there wasn’t enough water to sustain the damage that was occurring at that time.  So water pressure is a big issue.  Come join the views of our scenic vistas that they proclaim and advertise to all the other potential buyers.  Every vista that you approach there are issues with them.  These are just a few pictures of the ones that have the fences that have all fallen down.  Anybody who lets their child go up to some of these…and there is an area over there with a fifteen (15) foot drop. God forbid any kid goes out there to play and decides that they are going to go walk along and look at our beautiful vista they need to beware that there is that drop there.  The drops range from anywhere from six (6) feet to (15) feet.  I have some pictures to show that.  This is the emergency exit in the back with the ten and a half foot deep hole.  If you make it past that, you happen then to come upon our emergency back gate that is laying in the middle of the street, locked so that nobody can come in and nobody can get out.  So God forbid the one family that lives in the back of the subdivision alone ever needs help because they are not going to get it.  This was a big concern about the response and why our neighbor had to drive through this gate because nobody can get in to help us. Who has the key to this? Who in an emergency situation in the dark has a key to unlock that to get my family medical attention or emergency attention. There is no one that I know of.  My husband fortunately was home one night in the evening and we always have suspicious cars driving around.  There was a big heroin bust in our subdivision.  Again, we were told, “I’m going to lock the gates and I am going to get right on it. I’m going to do something about the safety.”  Nothing and that still continues. It is a dumping ground.  Very sad, quarter million dollar to million dollar homes in this neighborhood.  At this time, Mrs. Ivetic submitted pictures of the subdivision.  Pull up the carpet, pull up a chair. Grab yourself a drink from the refrigerator that is laying tossed on the side of the road in one of our cul-de-sacs.  Put the T.V. on that has a shattered glass on there for any kids who walk up to and cut themselves.  We are supposed to live and relax here.  This is the exit to our subdivision. There are two huge potholes.  The fix is “Let’s fill it with a little bit of rock. That will work.” The gate doesn’t even close. We tried to close it a little bit more to open it up so that when you come through you don’t have to hit these wonderful potholes.  But no, the gates are stuck because they are bent and that is how they are.  So you either hit the pothole or you hit the gate on the way out of the subdivision.  The lakes.  When we bought our lot we thought we were fortunate to own a lake lot.  That lake has been unkempt.  We have asked for treatment.  Granted he did respond a couple of times with getting someone out there but it has been very minimal.  We live in algae, seaweed, and that is my backyard.  We had our son’s graduation this past year.  The embarrassment to bring your family and friends to your half a million dollar home and for them to look at the deplorable conditions that you live on.  It is just disgusting. The street lights, if you want to go out and don’t believe anything that is in this book I please request that somebody take what we are saying seriously and take a drive.  These are all the street intersections where you will find absolutely no street lights. Concerning snow removal, I was the only nurse from my hospital and I am a nurse manager there and I am responsible and accountable for the patients on my unit and I do serve Porter County.  I was the only manager that didn’t report to work the last significant snow fall because I couldn’t get out of my subdivision because there was almost a foot of snow in the roads. You didn’t know where there was road because it was never touched by a plow. They didn’t believe me at my facility and sent someone out to come get me.  They couldn’t get in and that was the only time we had safety of anybody entering was because they couldn’t do it because there was a foot of snow lying in the way.  I ask you tonight to take what you are hearing very seriously.  I present you with fifteen minutes of snap shots of what we have been dealing with for a couple of years now and others a few.  If you don’t think that this is a safety issue then I have real concerns about Porter County and I have real concerns about my family.  We came here because we thought it was a safer county and we are finding out wrong.  These developers come from Illinois and if this is how they choose to develop in their State then that is where they need to stay.  I am asking you as fellow Hoosiers to look at this and say, “We are not going to accept this here in Indiana. We are not going to let you buy our land and build on our land if you are not going to take care of our residents that live here.”  I can honestly say that I have given Mr. Floramo many a chance.  We have waited very patiently for phone calls back.  We have been avoided; we have been told what he thinks that we want to hear with no action to his words.  If that is what they want to do in Illinois then that is where it needs to stay. Please don’t let that happen in our neighborhoods.

    Mike Ivetic, 66 Morena Terrace, Crown Point, Indiana.  All that I have to add is the pictures speak for themselves.

    Robert William Jones, 74 Morena Terrace, Crown Point. I have many of the same concerns as the people who are my neighbors.  I agree with a lot of what they are saying.  I am also a builder in the subdivision so I am talking to you as a builder and not a resident.  It has been a tough three years out there.  Between my father and I we purchased fifty (50) lots and that accounts for more than 10% of the land out there for sale.  It has been tough for three years and this summer seems to be a little bit more promising.  I finally see the light at the end of the tunnel.  I don’t know if the Board has the power to put a moratorium on building permits and I don’t know if you are even considering doing that. 

    Mr. Breitzke stated we do have the authority to do that.

    Mr. Jones stated I am begging you it is not just myself that lives in the neighborhood that is a builder.  There are four other builders that live in there as well.  None of them are present.  I know that if you were to put a moratorium on the building permits I understand why you would do that but it would severely cripple my ability to support my family.  If you plan on getting involved with this I am going to ask that you seek a more diplomatic solution or an alternative solution rather than try to hinder my ability to make…

    Mr. Breitzke stated that is one of the reasons we are here today because the Board agreed to hear this out before we went to that extreme.

    Mr. Burns asked how much land does the builders own versus the developer.

    Mr. Jones stated I believe that lots closed with the developer. 

    Mr. Burns asked does he own a large portion of that.

    Mr. Jones stated as I understand it is that there are still 250 lots available through the developer.  There are 407 lots that were developed in the subdivision.  I don’t know how many are left through the developer. 

    Mr. Hutson stated there are some issues with maybe a builder out there.  There is a practice of one of the builders that simply puts soil onto of an open drain that supposed to allow some water to drain there and it is just left.  That is not a common practice and it is not on the same lot he is supposed to be working on.

    Bonnie Jones, 74 Morena Terrace.  First of all I agree with everything that has been said here tonight.  We have many grievances that we have brought to the county and to the developer and have told that we are a private subdivision.  I feel that this is an unacceptable answer because my tax dollars are paid at this very building. I just feel that we deserve fair representation.  I just ask who we get that from.

    Jackie Gutierrez, 729 Cirque Ct., Crown Point, Indiana.  We are the original residents.  I have begged, I have pleaded and I have cried.  I am a Willow; I will bend but believe me when I tell you Mr. Floramo plays a game.  The song “Smooth Operator” was cloned for him.  I have called on more than one occasion. My husband has written him e-mails.  This is supposed to be a gated community.  It is not.  We have paid for our lot as has everyone else here.  This was our “dream home” and it has turned into a nightmare.  It has caused problems between my husband and I.  He blames himself as having not seeing what Mr. Floramo was doing.  We have come to this house several times to be heard.  It is a disappointment to hear that it is delayed once again.  We have had meetings on our own in our own subdivision and in our own homes.  We have listed grievances till we are blue in the face. Nothing but nothing has been done.  I too am from Lake County and may I say she spoke eloquently for all of our concerns.  I hate to see this area go down the tubes.  Believe me it is and it is the only way that we can get anything done is by voting in a block, we will.  No one seems to pay any attention.  We have tried to hit Mr. Floramo in the pocket book, which doesn’t seem to have any affect.  We are at our wits end.  Everybody that I know of in this development has moved in because they believed in this place.  Mr. Floramo does not return calls.  He has relatives answer.

    Deborah Mann, 62 Bergamo Lane.  I don’t know what else can be said. I agree with everyone.

    Don Plumb, 784 Cirque Drive.  After the fire at Bob’s house the Fire Chief said that he did not have a list of lots with addresses or a map.  I compiled a list of lots and addresses so there would be a cross reference so that we could use this with the map.  I came up with this list and offered to make up a map for Floramo.  I asked for a copy of the map and that was several weeks ago.  I haven’t heard anything back.  I offered free service to him.  I am President of Plumb Tuckett and Associated.  We are an engineering firm in Merrillville. I am very familiar with some of the engineering problems out there and the surveying issues.  I can’t get them to budge off dead center and doing anything to cooperate with us.  I have had difficulty in communicating with him myself.  I have called him and got poor response.  Many times he will defer things to Mike Cap.  I call Mike and I get a recording that says, “Mike Cap is not accepting calls at this time and you will now be disconnected.”  There is not even a voice mail where I can leave a message for him. We had a problem with a leak in the lake.  The lake level dropped close to three and a half feet.  In search of an answer as to why the lake was leaking, near my lot there is a drain from the lake with a valve and so I was walking through the lot next to me.  Walking through this tall grass, I hear water rushing.  I go over to see what it was and there was an open manhole about 12-feet deep with no cover over it and there is water rushing through the bottom of it.  Obviously, this is where the lake is leaking.  In this original design back when Mussman design this there was a drain from a ravine that ran through this lot and then west to the pond.  I had done some excavating and I did get approval to do this, I dredged the edge of the lake because there was a lot of debris from construction.  I found out through the grapevine that they were pointing the finger at me that I must have hit the end of that pipe and that is why the lake was leaking.  Actually, the deepest cut that I made with a backhoe was about five feet above the top of the pipe.  There is no way that I could have hit that pipe.  I measured it myself and found out that is slopes in there and there is no way that we could have hit that pipe.  What they did was put a manhole in the middle of a pipe and diverted it down another lot line and meant to abandon this pipe I guess, but they left it there. The seal was broken and it was leaking the lake out. I got permission to hire a contractor to come out and put a rubber boot over the end of that pipe.  That pipe was leaking westward underneath the next house that was built.  There is a 15-inch plastic pipe going under a home in that subdivision.  When I asked what are you going to do about it, I got a response from Mr. Cap to the affect that if the builder of that house had submitted a site plan we would make him fix it.  Today that pipe is still there and still under a house.  The house isn’t sold yet.  It is still empty but it is below the foundation.  You talk about safety factors; I put a piece of plywood over it and put ribbon around it so more children wouldn’t come in there.  If a child walked through there, he could’ve fallen right in the manhole.  There was nothing over that manhole. 

    Mr. Burns asked how deep was the manhole.

    Mr. Plumb stated it was about 12-feet deep.  I go out and check the manhole now and then to make sure the plywood is still there.  The lot across the street from me was owned by Marko Sowa at the time, he needed some fill somewhere so he came in and excavated fill from that lot and took all of the top soil that was holding the earth in place and hauled it away without putting any silt fence.  Every time it rains our street fills up with silt out in front and it still does today.  There is still a mound of clay in the street.

    Craig Paden, 147 Cirque Dr.  I agree with all of my neighbors. Every morning about 5:25 a.m. it reminds me of the water pressure in our subdivision.  Tomorrow morning I will be reminded again when I attempt to take a shower.  I just want to let you know what it is like to turn on the water full pressure watch the shower head and see it jump out five-inches and go down.  I don’t know the pressure but in 2003 when I bought a lot at that time I was told the pumping station would provide sufficient water pressure for these 400 plus lots.  For whatever reason, we do not have that pumping system working.  I have taken a shower with the water barely coming out of the shower head and taking twenty minutes to take a shower that should take four or five minutes. 

    Edward Morales, 326 W. Phillips Rd.  I am the Porter Township Trustee. It is my responsibility to provide fire service to the residents of Porter Township.  I have spoken to many of the residents here and there are a lot of issues that are exactly what they said.  Prior to the May 9 meeting I will provide you well in advance with documentation from my office and issues that we will address.  This is a serious issue.  We did hold a public forum with the fire department and chief’s.  We had Mr. Bucko from Net Nitco come down.  I will present all of you with the proper information and what has happened from this time forward before the May 9 meeting.

    Tom Runyan, 68 Bergamo Lane.  I agree with everything that has been said.

    Dale Boekeloo, 90 Bergamo Ct.  I agree with everything that has been said tonight.  I just want to say that when I get up at 5:00 a.m. to take my shower I get a couple of minutes of just air coming out of our shower head.

    Kathy Boekeloo, 90 Bergamo Ct.  I could not flush my toilet last week and this has been going on for two years.

    David Boekeloo, 64 Bergamo Lane.  I agree with everything that has been said.

    Dolores Boekeloo, 64 Bergamo Lane.  I am at the point where I almost have to say I am ashamed to live in Falling Waters.

    Dave Cullom, 63 Morena Terrace.  I can almost guarantee that Mr. Floramo will have another excuse for the next meeting not to show up.  The fire department has said that they will not come in the back of our subdivision because of the sink hole.  They said that they were afraid that their fire trucks would tip. They said the key to the back gate is kind of insignificant.  They said they will only use the front entrance until the roads in the back are repaired. I am very concerned about the safety issues and the promises that were made when we moved out there.

    Mrs. Kenevan stated someone is supposed to come out and plow the snow.  Floramo only contracted Timber Ridge Landscaping to the main gates and by the two stop signs.  I called Kurt Olson who is Timber Ridge Landscaping and he said he is not liable for all of the roads because he is only contracted to do a certain portion.  Floramo is not taking care of the issues out there.

    Mr. Plumb stated I like Falling Waters and I like where we live.  I like the lake and the scenery and it is a beautiful subdivision. 

    Mr. Burns asked is there anything that we can do now?

    Commissioner Harper stated I am so mad right now.  The members of this Board know that I have asked for this to be on our agenda for four or five times since I have been Commissioner.  This was approved before hand.  There are two words that I don’t want to hear in this courthouse.  One is “Tony.”  I am sure it is great to have people to come to a meeting and we talk about “Tony.”  He is a developer. I just don’t want to hear that again.  The second thing is…I remember Carol coming to me last week or the week before and said, “They told me we can’t do anything about this.”  I don’t want to hear that again.  Mike in the Building Department prepared a document on Yellowstone.  I would like everyone to have a copy of it.  Yellowstone has all kinds of problems and with each problem Mike put a solution.  If we don’t have a rule that says that private streets have to be built in a certain way then we better get it and we better get it before we pass another subdivision with private streets.  How can we let someone put in private streets where they are sinking and then not do something about it.  I want to tell the Trustee to get your attorney here, get your fire department attorney here and do something about that money.  There were promises made at meetings.  There is documentation that the fire department was going to get money.  Let’s get the attorney’s together and do something about that money.   Mr. Berta there is a conservancy district.  I’ll tell you what I know about conservancy districts.  I used to live out in Long Lake and when we paid to the conservancy district we had a vote.  I will find out by the next meeting who the members are, why you don’t have members if you don’t have members and when you are going to get them.  The conservancy district floated a bond issue to buy your infrastructure, which you are going to end up paying back for and I understand, I don’t know if it is true or not, but I understand at some point you were told you weren’t going to have to pay for the infrastructure and that the developer was going to pay for it.  But now you are going to pay for it.  Another thing I will say is if these people are right about one thing this guy ain’t coming.  It is arrogance and turn your back.  That is all it is.  I think that there should not be another permit.  I am sorry if some builders have some problems but let them get their attorney and get them straightened up.  These people shouldn’t live this way any more. 

    Mr. Burns stated I agree and I am upset.  I think we should have some action plan now. There are some very unsafe issues.  Can we send out our fire department or our engineers and correct some of these issues even if it is temporary. 

    Commissioner Harper stated lets have Emergency Management and the Building Department and everybody out there and let’s get it done and maybe the fire department will help.

    Mr. Burns asked can we send people out there to correct four or five of these items.  Is it legal to do that?
   
    Attorney McClure stated sure.  We find that it is imminent danger we can go out and put up saw horses etc.

    Mr. Thompson stated there is pump that is not hooked up and working and I have spoke with Indiana American Water officials on this situation and I need to get back with them because I think there is some confusion there.  Supposedly, there is an agreement in place where they were supposed to fix this and get it on line and operational within three months. If it isn’t in three months, Indiana American Water is going to contact us and request that we no longer issues any permits out there because they are not going to do any tap-ons.  I have to get back with them because I thought I was supposed to get a follow up letter from Indiana American Water stating that and I haven’t seen it yet.

    Mr. Burns asked can we throw gravel in the large potholes.

    Mr. Breitzke stated absolutely.

    Mr. Burns stated lets make it safe.

    Mr. Thompson stated as far as the 911 situation with the phones I spoke with the director of 911 about this situation.  It is a problem with Vontage because of the fact that Vontage is not regulated by the FCC such as your land lines, such as Verizon or NITCO that is in this area.  They have to apply to 911 regulations and everything on that. Internet type providers of phone service such as Vontage are not regulated by FCC, however, the director said that there is talk about doing this but it takes an act of Congress to be able to make it regulated by the FCC.  He said he is trying to work with Vontage.  He has given them a plat and he is trying to work with Vontage to get this corrected because yes there was a nineteen (19) minute delay in getting the fire department out for that fire.  It first went to Crown Point and Crown Point sent it to Lake County and Lake County said it wasn’t theirs and it finally got sent to Porter County. Nineteen (19) minutes later they were dispensing fire trucks.
   
    Commissioner Harper asked shouldn’t we have something in our ordinance that we are not going to give building permits till they have land lines with the telephone company that works with 911.  Shouldn’t we write that into our ordinance.

    Mr. Thompson stated I understand and I don’t disagree.  I agree.

    Commissioner Harper stated even if we have to hire more staff and spend more money and hire more attorneys we have to do the job. 

    Mr. Burns asked can we investigate the bond? 

    Mr. Thompson stated there is $340,000 approximately in a bond and it is not set to expire…don’t quote me on that amount. I know it is roughly in that area and it is set to expire in 2008 sometime. It covers road and pretty much the infrastructure that is necessary.

    Commissioner Harper stated we will call the Highway Department in the morning.  The pot holes are the most worrisome thing.  The most worrisome thing is these various places where it just caves in.  I am going to make a suggestion.  There are areas where DLZ is going in and doing three or four check-ups after the thing gets started and I think we have to think about that.  This isn’t the only problem we got like this.

    Mr. Thompson stated to answer your question with private developments with private roads I can sit there and say that we don’t have anything in our ordinance as far as that goes.  We do not have inspections as far as roads go.

    Commissioner Harper asked you mean we don’t have any requirements as to how a private road has to be built, how deep it has to be.  We can allow somebody to do something like Lake Eliza.

    Mr. Breitzke stated no.  We do have standards for private roads but unfortunately when they don’t have inspections.

    Commissioner Harper stated we have the right to have them inspected.

    Mr. Thompson stated we do have a recent ordinance that was passed that any proposed lot that is built must be built on an existing county road or a road built to county specifications dedicated to the public. 

    Commissioner Harper asked the ordinance that they built under is there certain specifications that they have to hold up on their roads.

    Mr. Thompson stated in my opinion no.

    Mr. Burns stated sometimes they agree to build to county specs. 

    Mr. Thompson stated basically, we should go back and check the construction plans.

    Mr. Detert stated I have been told that we have no business getting involved in covenants.  But in Four Seasons where I live the covenants state that if the Four Seasons did not keep up the roads the county could come in and take them over.  Why don’t we insist that the covenants have wordage like that.

    Commissioner Harper stated I am asking you are we going to issue any more building permits out there.

    Mr. Burns stated I say no.

    Commissioner Harper stated I say none.


    Mr. Burns stated if we do that how do we know what lots the developers own versus the contractors.

    Mr. Breitzke stated the Auditors office has record of all of those homes.  We could consider releasing the lots on a lot by lot case too.

    Commissioner Harper stated let’s just stop it.

    Mrs. Gutierrez stated I have a feeling that if you went in and checked the specs on the roads and on the water treatment plant you are going to find they were not met.

    Commissioner Harper stated I am wondering if we should hire DLZ and have them do that too.

    Commissioner Harper moved to put a moratorium on all building permits in Falling Waters Subdivision, contact DLZ to do a review of the infrastructure in the subdivision to see if it meets the plans that they presented to the Plan Commission and to go in and fix anything that we find that is an imminent danger.  Mr. Read seconded the motion.

    Mr. Detert stated I kind of prefer that we didn’t use DLZ on this and use one of the other firms. The reason I say that is because DLZ was involved in a subdivision right across the street.

    Commissioner Harper asked give us a name of another firm.

    Mr. Thompson stated R.W. Armstrong.

    Commissioner Harper moved to change his motion from DLZ to R.W. Armstrong.

    Mr. Burns asked Mr. Jones how many houses do you have under construction.

    Mr. Jones stated I have one under construction but I am sitting on 32 lots.

    Mr. Burns asked how many homes are you going to build this summer.

    Mr. Jones stated it is something I can’t determine right now. I hope to build six to ten.  He stated I am begging you it is not my fault.  I moved my family out there two and a half years ago out there.  I personally bought ten lots and my dad has bought 40 lots.  I am building homes for my dad and for myself. I realize that if there is no other alternative then you have to do what you have to do.  But I don’t understand that why as a governing body you can’t pick lots from this day forward that are in my name or my dad’s name or if they are still in the developers name he could put it under someone else’s name but it is done after this date. 

    Commissioner Harper asked how can you build homes if the toilets don’t flush and the roads aren’t in.

    Mr. Burns stated I agree with you.

    Mr. Breitzke stated we are going to bring this back in two weeks to see where we are at.

    Mr. Detert stated we could issue no building permits unless they have proof that they have concurred with the covenants out there.

    Commissioner Harper stated lets give the attorney two weeks to figure it out and come back.  It is not going to hurt anybody to wait two weeks for a building permits.

    Mr. Berta stated I am asking you to consider what Mr. Jones just said.  This isn’t about the good guys here. There are bad guys that caused all this stuff and to end up in the position that we are in.  A statement made earlier tonight was let’s not talk about what we can’t do.  I am asking you to protect the people that have integrity.  Go after these fellows that put us in these positions.  There has to be a way to do that without putting a man’s livelihood in jeopardy that has done good things for us out there. 

    Motion carried on the following roll call vote:

    Burns   -   Yes   Cole      -   Yes   Detert    -   Abstain
    Harper  -   Yes   Hutson    -   Yes   Marshall  -   Yes
    Read    -   Yes   Stevenson -   Yes   Breitzke  -   Yes

    Discussion on Timberland Subdivision.

    Charlie Ray stated I am with Duneland Group.  We have a fix for the corner lot on the west side.  We have gone through the engineering drawings with both Kevin and David Schelling. We are helping the County by fixing a problem that they have on CR 900 N. by replacing some catch basins and some manholes.  We will be taking care of the neighbors problem too.  We have given the drawings to three contractors and the bids are due next week and that will be awarded that day.  We met with Christine Livingston with Save the Dunes and we are getting some information from her on vegetative swales and will be putting those in by the middle of the month.  This is where we stand.

    Commissioner Harper stated so that is going to take care of the problem on the corner of CR 900 N. and Meridian, the southwest corner.

    Mr. Ray stated yes.

    Commissioner Harper asked did you have to get an easement from somebody.

    Mr. Ray stated I had to get an easement from the Gaither’s themselves and they said they would give it to us. 

    Mr. Read asked you have some lines in here for piping and swales. Which way is the water going?

    Mr. Ray stated the water is going over into the wooded wetland.  We are going to have a vegetated swale right along here.  The reason it is coming from up there is that the County Road Department has problems with some manholes up there and they asked us if we would take care of it.  So that is what we are doing.  We are fixing their problems up here. We are going to be picking up all of this up here so that we can take…

    Mr. Read stated and running it into the wooded area.

    Mr. Ray stated it is out of the wetland and we have a vegetated swale that runs all the way over so that it is clean before it gets to the wetland.  We are making the water flow from west to east.  We have a pump station right there.

    Mr. Cole asked what happens if there is an electrical storm and the power goes out?

    Mr. Ray stated the power won’t be off for long enough time that would create a problem. We calculated how much water comes to that area and it never seems to get above a certain height because it drains away.

    Mrs. Marshall asked is the County participating in paying for this.

    Mr. Ray stated no. We are doing it all.

    Mrs. Marshall stated you are going to bore under Cr 900…

    Mr. Ray stated no.  We are going to open cut CR 900 and we already got approval to do that but we are going to bore under…

    Mrs. Marshall stated this road here. 

    Mr. Ray stated exactly.

    Mrs. Marshall asked isn’t there already a tile here.

    Mr. Ray stated there is something there.  Someone said it is concrete.  Someone said it was metal.  We don’t want to fiddle with it so we are going to put in our own line.

    Mrs. Marshall asked at what depth are you going to put that under the road.

    Mr. Ray stated it goes to six feet or so.

    Mrs. Marshall asked how many feet from the corner is this?

    Mr. Ray stated 100 feet.  The standpipe over here governs the height of the water in that whole area. If the standpipe overflows it goes in through the whole creek system and through our subdivision.

    John Gaither, 7106 N. West Schaffer Drive, Monticello, Indiana.  My ex-wife is the owner of the property at 894 N. Meridian.  I am speaking on her behalf and I do have a financial interest in the property.  There were assurances to Commissioner Sheets and Mr. Poparad and all the other members at the time that this was going to be taken care of then before this ever started.  In 2005 it was said that it was going to be taken care of.  I have the minutes from 2006 when one single offer was made, which was substantially less than what we even paid for the property in 1989.  A counter offer was made and no response at all.  That was a year ago this past May.  At 3:00 p.m. yesterday, this is what I received with no notice that there was a meeting.  It was just asking me for an easement. There has been no consideration mentioned and no assurance mentioned that it will take care of the problem. Until now, I haven’t gotten anything. I want the Plan Commission members and Commissioner Harper to know that we have not agreed to any of this. I do want the Commission to know that my feeling is since 2003 and actually prior to that when I would meet with the original developers at the time, the only time that we had any contact from the Duneland Group or this subdivision is when you guys threaten to pull the ticket on them. I want to assure you right here on the record that we are not trying to not cooperate.  We want this to work also.  I want to meet with you and go over everything and have a serious time line when we can get this done.

    Mr. Detert stated our committee started looking at this last December or January and we were assured that there was a solution to the problem and here we are tonight trying to referee a deal on an access to a property. 

    Commissioner Harper stated the problem here is that we passed an engineering plan that was presented and it is our fault and the engineers fault.  They said that they were going to engineer this a certain way and apparently they didn’t have the rights-of-way and things that they needed to do this and we didn’t have the staff to know that they didn’t have this.  So it got passed.  Hopefully, having DLZ from now on that is not going to happen again.  I have called some meetings and we have had some meetings and they have had two or three plans and this is true.  Now, none of this is our fault except we passed a plan that wouldn’t work.  It is there fault because they presented a plan that they didn’t have the rights-of-way and so forth. Then the neighbors wouldn’t give them easements.  What I say tonight is let’s put it over for two weeks and see if they have it worked out in two weeks.

    Mr. Breitzke stated I don’t think that we would ever had somebody volunteer to solve a drainage problem that was not impacted or caused by the development.  What they are doing was making a free will contribution to…

    Commissioner Harper stated I don’t want to hear that Kevin. When someone stands up here and says we are going to buy you a ball field or we are going to give your fire department $200,000.

    Mr. Breitzke stated the bottom line is if the Gaither’s give their approval and they give an easement and their contracts can they proceed with construction or do they have to wait for us and go through another meeting.

    Commissioner Harper stated I move that they proceed with construction if we can get it done.

    Mrs. Marshall stated I think that you have to have the “I’s” dotted and the “T’s” crossed. 

    Mr. Detert moved to continue this discussion to the April 25, 2007 meeting and have the developer come back and if he doesn’t have an agreement and a plan in place we shut him down. Mrs. Marshall seconded the motion, which carried on the following roll call vote:

    Burns   -   Yes   Cole      -   Yes   Detert    -   Yes
    Harper  -   Yes   Hutson    -   Yes   Marshall  -   Yes
    Read    -   Yes   Stevenson -   Yes   Breitzke  -   No




    Discussion on Sagamore Subdivision.

    Mrs. Marshall submitted pictures from Sagamore Subdivision.  She stated this is not working.

    Bill Ferngren stated this drainage plan is not completed yet.  Construction of this was started after we received preliminary plat approval.  The detention basins were all put in first.  This is the conservation design. We are now at the point of the year where we can get all this done. The simplest answer is we need to be able to finish the work and we need to work at these ponds first.

    Mrs. Marshall stated when you first came here for the primary plat and we talked about the drainage, Mr. Ferngren said we would not have any more water that currently goes there.  We have volumes of water down there.  Mr. Nelson is a neighbor of mine and he has more water, I believe, than he has ever had before.  It looks like to me that you took the water to the border and you dropped it.

    Mr. Ferngren stated that is not true and we didn’t hear about a water problem from anyone.  Mr. Nelson hasn’t been in contact with us indicating that there is a problem. Rick is on this property on a daily basis.

    Mr. Carlson stated the weather did not cooperate to get the planting done on this.  The process of building an entire system depends wholly on the size of the pond being shaped and the planting of the prairie grass and that is the part of our construction schedule that we are working on right now.

    Mrs. Marshall stated I am afraid that when you start getting building permits and start covering over those areas where houses are going to be and get the sidewalks in and the drives in you are going to direct so much water down there that…eventually it goes down the road and then it goes north into Salt Creek.

    Mr. Carlson stated the south portion of the subdivision is following the natural contour of the land.  We have not rerouted anything on the property other than where the water has always run. 

    Mrs. Marshall stated I think that the tubes that are under what was the existing road where the road used to go up to the house, I think that those two huge tubes, I don’t think you have them set at the right grade because it is not holding the water back in the ponds that are before that. The pond that is on the west side on the south side there was completely drained out.  Something is not functioning.

    Mr. Carlson stated it is supposed to drain out.  It is not a retention but a detention.

    Gene Nelson, 307 W. 100 N.  My property is right next to this.  Mr. Ferngren said that has not been no talking about this.  I have talked to you and I talked to your dad.  So that is not true that I have not tried to talk to you. 

    Mr. Ferngren stated I am not suggesting that you haven’t spoken because I know that Rick’s father was out there last week.  What I am saying that Rick has informed me and Bill Carlson has informed me and if check the minutes this is what I said, “You never contacted them to express that there is drainage problems in that area.” 

    Mr. Nelson stated last year they were pumping water into my gulley.  They said that they can do that.

    Mr. Ferngren stated I never said that.

    Mr. Nelson stated he said that they were allowed to pump that water and they pumped it to my gulley. Mr. Nelson submitted pictures of the gulley.

    Mr. Detert stated when we passed this did we know that they were going to run that water with these big orange tubes.  Did we know this at DAC and did DAC agree to this.

    Mr. Breitzke stated yes.  There is a natural water course that leads to Clark Ditch.

    Mr. Carlson stated Mr. Nelson’s description of that is pretty good.  He has a gulley that runs through his property to a 30 or 36 inch tube that runs under CR 100 N.  That pipe is there for a reason. That gulley is there for a reason. The water goes there and it always has gone there. Our drainage system is designed to allow the water to go where it has always gone.  Mr. Thompson visited the site with me. 

    Mr. Detert asked when is this going to be done.

    Mr. Carlson stated we will be done this construction season.  We won’t have full vegetation by fall because the prairie takes longer to take to seed and get fully rooted. There will be a covered crop going along with the prairie grass. Then the prairie grass comes in seasonally over the next couple of years.  We will work till about the end of October but we hope to work till mid November.

    Mr. Detert stated the one picture that I saw it looked like the water was overflowing the wall.

    Mr. Carlson stated there is always a point of overflow and that is the purpose of the retention. 

    Mr. Breitzke stated you explain to me where that is at with the pump and why.

    Mr. Carlson stated that is our east outlet during last fall’s construction that when the ponds fill up we were only rough cut and we were trying to final grade to get ready for seed you have to remove the water. We held the water for as long as we could until we could remove the water and try to finish the construction of the ponds.

     Mr. Hutson asked will these be working before you start actually building homes in there.

    Mr. Carlson stated yes.

    Mr. Breitzke stated I don’t know that we need any action tonight.

    Commissioner Harper stated I think we need to monitor this situation.

    Discussion on Roseanna Gray’s property.

    Mr. Detert stated I spoke with Mr. Carlson and he said that he was willing to participate in getting that plan and getting rid of that water.  When is that going to happen?

    Mr. Breitzke stated within the next two weeks.

    Commissioner Harper stated let’s put that on the April 25, 2007 agenda.

    There being no further business the meeting adjourned at 11:30 p.m.

PORTER COUNTY
PLAN COMMISSIONER


S/Kevin D. Breitzke, President

Attest: Robert W. Thompson Jr. AICP,
Executive Director/County Planner