PORTER COUNTY PLAN COMMISSION

Regular Meeting
February 8, 2006

M I N U T E S

The regular meeting of the Porter County Plan Commission was held on Wednesday, February 8, 2006 at 6:30 p.m. in the Administrative Center, 155 Indiana Ave., Suite 205, Valparaiso, Indiana.

Those members present were Jim Burge, Rick Burns, Tim Cole, Robert Detert, Commissioner Harper, Elizabeth Marshall, Herb Read and Kevin Breitzke, President. Staff members present were Robert W. Thompson Jr., Patricia S. Gibson and Attorney Ken Elwood.

Mr. Detert moved to waive the reading of the January 11, 2006 minutes and approve them as received in the mail. Mr. Cole seconded the motion, which carried on a unanimous voice vote.

Mr. Detert moved to waive the reading of the January 25, 2006 minutes and approve them as received in the mail. Mr. Burge seconded the motion, which carried on a unanimous voice vote.

Old Business:

Case 06-FP-4. Petition of Bucher Development, LLC, 197 E. Arthur Lane, Valparaiso, Indiana seeking a replat of Lots 12, 13, 14, Tract A and Retention Area No. 1 of Grande Prairie, Phase 1 to be located on the South side of Appaloosa Lane, East of Arthur Lane in Morgan Township. (To contain 5 lots on 13.66 acres. Property is zoned R-1.)

Dean Bucher, 81 Matt Ridge, Valparaiso, Indiana. He stated we are seeking a final plat approval of a replat of Grande Prairie, Phase I. He stated in December we received primary approval and then we went to TAC in January.

Mr. Burns asked are there any changes.

Mr. Bucher stated no changes from primary.

Mr. Burns asked is the bond in place.

Mr. Thompson stated since this is replatting of existing lots within Phase I he already has the bond in place. He stated since this is all frontage along infrastructure for Phase I the bond isn’t necessary. He stated it is already covered under Phase I.



Mr. Burns moved to approve Case 06-FP-4. Mr. Detert seconded the motion, which carried on a unanimous roll call vote.

Case 06-SE-2. Inspection Committee Report for Ryan Kerr, 51 W. 900 N. seeking a Special Exception to permit operation of a daycare/preschool to service up to 80 children, to be located at 51 W. 900 N. in Liberty Township.

At this time, Mr. Thompson read the Inspection Committee Report.

Mr. Detert moved to forward Case 06-SE-2 to the Board of Zoning Appeals. Mr. Burns seconded the motion, which carried on a unanimous roll call vote.

New Business:

At this time, Mr. Breitzke read the rules of conduct for a public hearing.

Case 06-P-2. Petition of Grace Buncich, 771 W. 50 N., Valparaiso, Indiana seeking primary plat approval for Buncich Addition to be located at 771 W. 50 N., in Union Township. (To contain 1 lot on 1.15 acres. Property is zoned RR.)

Don Bengel stated I am a land surveyor in Porter County. He stated we have a one lot subdivision on CR 50 N. He stated this is between CR 750 W. and County Line Road in Union Township. He stated there is no detention required. He stated the runoff on one lot is pretty small. He stated we will be improving the grade of the ditch and the line of the ditch along the road. He stated the septic conditions are better than normal. He stated according to the Health Department report it has a 25 loading rate. He stated this is all that is left that Mrs. Buncich has. He stated at one time they owned 40 acres and 38 acres of it is being used for raising horses and training horses. He stated the area to the west of this and to the south has been developed. He stated to the south are some smaller lots but most appear to be five acre lots. He stated to the west of this the parcels are three quarters of an acre except the parcel right adjacent is larger. He stated the best we can tell we meet all the regulations of the Planning Commission and the Zoning Ordinance. He stated we signed a road agreement and we have been to the Drainage Board. He stated we ask for your approval of this subdivision.

Mr. Breitzke stated the first of the list is Mr. Slakes. He stated Mr. Slakes you submitted a letter. He asked would you like that read into the record or would you like to just make comments.


Mr. Slakes stated I well, okay. He stated I guess that will do. He stated I do have other comments.

Mr. Breitzke stated you can make other comments and we will enter the letter into the record.

Mr. Slakes letter is in the primary plat file.

Mr. Slakes, 762 W. 50 N. He stated I am a nay. He stated my comment is the terminology of rural residential. He stated I think it is quite adequate and it should stay as it is found. He stated why we are here is the word “variance.” He stated we all knew what rural residential was when we all came out here. He stated the reason we are here is because of a variance. He stated I think that is a problem and I think that this is something that we shouldn’t have to address.

Mr. Breitzke stated for clarity we are not here for a variance hearing. He stated we are here to hear a one lot primary plat of a subdivision. He stated there is not a variance involved in this case.

Mr. Slakes stated it is a change from a five acre rural residential environment that I started out with.

Mr. Bengel stated this is not a variance hearing. He stated this plat conforms to the ordinance in every respect. He stated there has never been a five acre requirement for RR. He stated the requirement is one acre with 160 feet of width, which we have 162 feet. He stated this is a small road but because it is a 50 road, half-section line, it is a 40 foot dedication for the right-of-way. He stated it is going to be the only 40 feet in the area but that meets the ordinance also. He stated my only other response is that this plat meets the zoning requirements of the Plan Commission.

Mr. Slakes stated when I contacted the Plan Commission office I told the girl that I would like to do the same thing. He stated she said there is no reason you can’t except that you have to understand you can have one dwelling even if you have 500 acres until you have a variance or change made, you can only have one dwelling. He stated I said I had five acres and she said it doesn’t make any difference if you 500 you can only have one dwelling until you have a change made.

Mr. Breitzke stated the change being a subdivision and that is why Mr. Bengel is here. He stated you have to go through the Subdivision Ordinance.


Becky Klahn, 760-1 W. 50 N. She stated I would like to know why Grace didn’t show up to help answer some of these questions or Mr. Buncich. She asked why is it in her name instead of his name because it is his property.

Mr. Bengel stated the property is in Grace Buncich’s name. He stated these folks are both in their 80’s and they asked me if they had to come to the meeting. He stated I told them that was their choice but it seemed to be a simple matter to me and I didn’t see why they had to be here. He stated as long as they are represented I don’t think they have to be here.

Attorney Elwood stated from the Board’s standpoint it is not a concern legally that the owners are not here. He stated they can be represented by an agent.

Mrs. Klahn stated I am worried about the roads and the traffic for the building. She stated are they going to be able to fix the roads after they completed the plat. She stated I read in the minutes also that the levy that the attorney didn’t know…well I do know that Grace and Marko did build that levy up on the side of the road. She stated in the minutes it says that it was unknown at that time.

Bill Horbach, 760-2 W. 50 N. He stated you are saying that one house is considered a subdivision. He stated we don’t have any idea of the size of the house. He stated I am concerned about the roads too. He stated we just had this road redone last summer. He stated what is going to happen in the hot summer when they start working in there and it falls apart again.

Mr. Slates stated the other part is at the end of the driveway on 773 there is some sort of a water retention levy that sits there. He stated I have been out there for thirty years and if there is a lot of rain the culvert that they put under there, which is right adjacent to Mr. Buncich’s property his house that is existing now, is maxed out. He stated getting rid of the water and keeping it off the road could be a problem in heavy precipitation heavy rain.

Mr. Bengel stated I am not sure what levy they are talking about. He stated I know there is a culvert under the existing house to the west of here where Mr. Buncich lives. He stated when we were there we didn’t see any problem with that. He stated I don’t know if I would call it a levy or not. He stated as far as the house the house has to meet minimum county standards. He stated this is a one lot subdivision and we didn’t prepare any covenants. He stated I believe there is a buyer interested in



buying this lot. He stated all I can say is that I met the gentleman and it is not going to be a minimum house by any means. He stated the grade coming down from the east to the west along CR 50 N. is pretty hefty. He stated I am sure the water flows down there pretty well. He stated the only thing that I saw on this particular lot if there is going to be any grading done then I recommend that the swale be continued back a little more defined to the property line. He stated all the land to the east of here up to the road on the north side of CR 50 N. is all in pasture right now. He stated I can’t see where one more house in this configuration…I might pass out just so you can see this yellow spot the other lot is where Mr. Slakes lives. He stated I have Buncich outlined in heavy ink and that shows the exact parcel that we are talking about.

The public hearing was then closed.

Mr. Cole stated I was looking at the TAC minutes on this and Ms. Caldwell stated that they needed the soil borings and she asked if there was till out and Mr. Bengel said that he didn’t think so and it was all sand. He stated I don’t know if that is sand in that area. He asked is that sand.

Mr. Bengel stated there is a lot of mining in that area.

Mr. Cole stated I didn’t see any sand mining in that area. He asked what soil types are we talking about.

Mr. Bengel stated according to the soils report he has SL, Sandy Loam, SCL, Sandy Clay Loam, Sandy Loam, Fine-sand, Sandy Clay Loam and Fine-sand. He stated that is from the Soil Scientist.

Mr. Cole asked who is that.

Mr. Bengel stated John McQestion from Soil Solutions.

Mr. Cole asked do we have a copy of that.

Mr. Bengel stated I don’t put much faith in the county atlas.

Mr. Read stated your drawing says that the soils information from Porter County Atlas is RaB so are you accepting what is coming from the soil county atlas. He stated what are you basing it on.

Mr. Thompson stated that is a code requirement that they must put on the soil information from the SCS atlas from the 70’s.

Mr. Read asked where are the soil borings. He asked what kind of soils came up in the soil borings.

Mr. Bengel stated I just told you.

Mr. Read asked where does it say so.

Mr. Bengel stated that is in the report that we gave to the Health Department.

Mr. Cole asked do we have a copy of that report.

Mr. Thompson stated no but I would like a copy. He stated the only thing that I have is the Health Departments Field Investigation Report.

Mr. Read stated that doesn’t say either.

Mr. Bengel stated according to the Health Department report the loading rate is 25, which is pretty good.

Mr. Read asked what kind of soil is it.

Mr. Bengel stated they don’t say what kind of soil is on there.

Mr. Read stated I know, so we don’t know.

Mr. Breitzke stated they also say that drainage isn’t required so typically it doesn’t have till nor seasonal high water table.

Mr. Cole stated I am also a little confused. He stated in the minutes it says, “Mr. Breitzke stated four to five percent slopes.” He stated also within that paragraph it says, “Calculations on drainage looked pretty good. He stated he wants to make sure that as the water comes across, depending on the placement of the house and its elevation that it doesn’t have an affect on the neighbor. Mr. Bengel stated that he thinks the problem is not so much from the existing house as it is coming from the west.” He stated but the drainage lines on the map show them draining to the west. He stated then it says, “Mr. Breitzke stated that he thinks the east side drops off pretty dramatically and there is a little ravine just to the east of this.” He stated from what I have observed and from what this shows on the contours the ravine is probably to the west.

Mr. Breitzke stated no. He stated I think there is something further back northeast of this parcel. He stated on


the parcel itself…

Mr. Cole stated it doesn’t show it on the parcel.

Mr. Breitzke stated it doesn’t need to. He stated his parcel drains to the west. He stated the purpose of that comment was to have drainage around the proposed structure as he shows it and to take it along the side lot line.

Mr. Cole stated I think you will agree that it is confusing reading from the minutes. He stated we did see a swale to the west. He stated the swale may need to be enlarged or improved. He stated the ditch in the front looks like it needs to be improved too. He stated I am not saying that I am against this. He stated the details are not sufficient for me to make a really good decision.

Mr. Read stated there is a brick house to the west, which is considerably lower than the high point on this. He asked is the owner of that house here.

Mr. Bengel stated that is Mr. Buncich’s house.

Mr. Read asked does he live there.

Mr. Bengel stated he lives there and she does not.

Mr. Read stated it seems to me that there is a lot of water. He stated you have a 17-foot head between the low point and the high point on this property. He stated that little swale that is there has a very gentle slope and only goes up around 10-inches or 12-inches, something like that against the 17-foot head. He stated it seem to me that there is the danger of sheet runoff coming down and entering that little swale and going over the little swale, which then drops down again to the other house. He stated if Mr. Buncich doesn’t mind then it’s okay. He stated but some day that house might be on the market and somebody is going to get swamped with water. He stated I have a problem with that. He stated getting back to the area. He stated we are talking about one acre. He stated we have some building lines and easements and so forth. He asked what is the usable acreage. He stated it is somewhat less than an acre then.

Mr. Bengel stated the Health Departments usable has to be 30,000 square feet.

Mr. Read stated the Health Department said what? He stated I have a report in front of me here.



Mr. Bengel stated basically it says it has to be gravity type, no drainage required. He stated the absorption field has to be 900 square feet, which is pretty small and it can be from 10 to 36-inches deep. He stated that is the kind we love to get. He stated we don’t get many of those.

Mr. Read stated again, getting on to the type of soil is what. He asked what type of soil showed up in the soil borings.

Mr. Bengel stated they don’t list the soils on the Health Departments report. He stated they review the report and based on that report they put the loading rate down.

Mr. Read stated I assume there is nothing in here that tells where the water table is on dry days or wet days.

Mr. Bengel stated in the Soil Scientist Report he says that the Parent Material are Sandy Glacial Outwash. He stated there is no seasonal high water table. He stated there is no perched or fluctuating water table. He stated there was no free water in the hole. He stated there was no till and the site does not pond water. He stated it is composed of medium or coarse sands.

Mr. Read stated I lived in a place where I was sitting on sand and I had a high water table sometimes up to the surface of the ground. He stated well I will let that go and that is part of the problem we have with the Health Department is that they don’t give us enough information. He stated a single house is not a big deal as far as I am concerned on septic tanks. He stated when we get a group of houses as we have had before us, a subdivision with multiple houses then I have a really big problem with septic tanks and wells on these small lots. He stated the Health Department continues to issue these permits without having any kind of field testing or any kind of testing at all or where the water table is. He stated there is no field testing on it. He stated we don’t even know what kind of soil it is and at the bottom of this report it says, “This is a preliminary survey. A permit will be issued when the requirements of permit issuance have been completed and returned to the Porter County Health Department.” He asked what does that mean.

Mr. Bengel stated first of all I have a little difference of opinion. He stated the Health Department gives their report on subdivision based upon field testing. He stated you have to have three borings. He stated it used to be two but now it is three borings on each lot in a subdivision.

Mr. Read stated and we don’t have the three borings do we?

Mr. Bengel stated we do.

Mr. Read asked where?

Mr. Breitzke stated they are on the drawings, Herb.

Mr. Bengel stated we show the location on the drawing.

Mr. Read stated the location, yes, but what kind of soil and at what depths of what kind of soil.

Mr. Bengel stated there is in the report that the borings go down five feet. He stated that is a requirement of the State. He stated that’s all I can tell you that this is superb ground for septic. He stated in answer to your question on the statement on the bottom the Health Department gives basically this Field Investigation as a specification sheet. He stated whoever designs the septic has to take that specification sheet and design the septic, design the site plat, show where things are, show where the well is and the driveway and then they give that to the Health Department. He stated on that basis they will issue a final permit. He stated what they are saying is that they are not going to issue a permit.

Mr. Read stated I don’t think we should even consider it unless we know whether or not all these things have been taken care of. He stated as far as I can see based upon the information supplied to me I don’t have that information.

Mrs. Marshall asked how much frontage is on this proposed new lot.

Mr. Bengel stated 162-feet.

Mrs. Marshall asked how deep is it.

Mr. Bengel stated 310-feet.

Mrs. Marshall stated Mr. Slakes I understand that you have what is identified as lot 7 and you have five acres.

Mr. Slakes stated correct.

Mrs. Marshall stated immediately to the west of you the five acres has been subdivided so there is a house on the front part, which has 1.33 acres and on the back there is property left .36669 so that five acres has already been subdivided.

Mr. Slakes stated that is not the property next to me to the west but it is not next to me.

Mrs. Marshall stated the numbers don’t correspond on this and what is here.

Mr. Bengel stated mine is old.




Mrs. Marshall stated two lots over from Mr. Slakes property the other way we have five acres that have been divided into three parcels. She stated that is kind of a spaghetti subdivision.

Mr. Bengel stated these numbers have been changed when the Auditor redid the books. He stated I think that the sheet that you have Mr. Slakes is no. 8.

At this time, there was a discussion concerning the Auditor’s plat sheet.

Commissioner Harper asked do you have the Soil Scientist Report with you, Don.

Mr. Bengel stated yes.

Commissioner Harper asked can I see it.

Mr. Bengel stated sure.

Mr. Burge stated I don’t have any questions. He stated it seems like a reasonable request.

Mr. Burns stated it seems like the area to the west of it was subdivided and I really don’t have any problems with it.

Mr. Detert stated I have no problems.

Commissioner Harper stated I have nothing.

Mr. Breitzke stated I think just this way of explanation to Mrs. Marshall the Auditor has been trying to upgrade their maps and as they were compiling the old maps that were originally put together back in 1980 or so or maybe earlier they are making efforts to identify where they might have made mistakes. He stated the one that Don passed out tonight was an earlier one and that is probably where they are realizing they missed 8 on these parcels. He stated they have also been renumbering the parcels with a new number and indemnification system consistent with the State Statue for eventual use as GIS for parcel identification.

Mr. Read stated from now on I want the full soil test before we meet. He stated here I have about thirty seconds of time to analyze this. He stated I resent that and I think that is wrong. He stated I also think in the interest of full disclosure that the developers of these various lots should let potential buyers know of potential problems. He stated we have to do that now with buildings. He stated I have to do that now with


buildings. He stated many places in the country where you have to disclose flaws in a building. He stated we are not doing it as far as the site. He stated we have all kinds of sites where the soil is listed as severe for septic tanks. He stated I don’t have the chance to study these various depths and stuff between now and the vote that we are going to take in the next few minutes. He stated from now on if we don’t have these things 10 days before the Plan Commission meeting I am going to object to any of this stuff being entered into the record or I am going to object to it because we haven’t had it in time.

Mrs. Marshall stated this is the newest one, correct.

Mr. Breitzke stated it is the one that has the nice drawn numbers and stuff on it.

Mr. Thompson stated the one that was attached to the report.

Mr. Burns moved to approve primary plat for Case 06-P-2. Mr. Detert seconded the motion, which carried on the following ballot vote:

Burge - Yes Burns - Yes Cole - Yes
Detert - Yes Harper - Yes Marshall - Yes
Read - No Breitzke - Yes

At this time, Mr. Thompson explained the new proposed Unified Development Ordinance.

Mr. Thompson stated the way Karen Tallian wanted this set up was that the Plan Commission members were going to go through and read this and start getting their written comments. He stated in March we are going to have individual meetings with the Plan Commission members. He stated we will be sitting down and doing basically one on one meetings with all the members and what they like about it and what they don’t like and what they think needs to be changed or amended. He stated I will be writing a letter to try to explain this because it can be confusing.

Mr. Breitzke stated I did want to bring up that we are looking at some issues in the neighboring county is particularly bad with wood fire furnaces. He stated they are basically separate house structures with boilers that depending on their specifications their proximity they are a nuisance to a neighbor. He stated some of them are built to high emission standards and others aren’t and that has become the issue across the State. He stated one of the things I am going to ask you is are you interested in having an ordinance put together to restrict the


use of these in the county or what restrictions we might want on them.

Mrs. Marshall asked is that these grain burning things.

At this time, Mr. Breitzke explained what these are and suggested that we look into this and see what kind of history is out there.

Mr. Read stated Bob Thompson I asked you about the progress at least for me setting up a meeting for this Health Board.

Mr. Thompson stated they have been telling me about having it at the March Health Board meeting. He stated I was telling Kevin that I will make sure and confirm that tomorrow that we are definitely going to meet at the March Health Board meeting.

Mr. Read stated if the Health Department says that certain types of septic fields or septic systems will work or won’t work I want a diagram to show me how. He stated I am going in there not to beat anybody over the head, although I am considerably distressed with what has gone on in the past. He stated I just want to ask them how they reach their conclusions and to show me on the diagram how they do it.

Mr. Detert stated there are other issues when talking about septics. He stated if they are building a house and even though that ground has been approved if they start running heavy concrete trucks and stuff over that ground it can affect the septic and make it result in a non-working septic. He stated I think that we ought to include on our ordinance that any builder rope off the septic area.

Mr. Breitzke stated the Health Department actually requires that.

Mr. Detert stated they don’t do anything about it.

Mr. Breitzke stated they have and I have had subdivisions where they stopped a guy from…

Mr. Detert stated if they happen to be there. He stated I think what it takes is somebody to put up some posts and a rope around it with some flags on it.

Mr. Breitzke stated that would be a good suggestion for them at the meeting.





There being no further business the meeting adjourned at 7;30 p.m.


PORTER COUNTY
PLAN COMMISSION


s/ Kevin D. Breitzke, President

Attest: Robert W. Thompson Jr. AICP, Executive Director/County Planner