PORTER COUNTY PLAN COMMISSION

Regular Meeting
January 11, 2006

M I N U T E S

The regular meeting of the Porter County Plan Commission was held on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 at 6:30 p.m. in the Administrative Center, 155 Indiana Ave., Suite 205, Valparaiso, Indiana.

Those members present were Rick Burns, Tim Cole, Robert Detert, Commissioner Bob Harper, Elizabeth Marshall, Herb Read and Kevin Breitzke, President. Those members absent were Jim Burge. Staff members present were Robert W. Thompson Jr., Patricia S. Gibson, and Fred Siminski.

Mr. Burns moved to waive the reading of the December 14, 2005 minutes and approve them as received in the mail. Mr. Detert seconded the motion, which carried on a unanimous voice vote.

Old Business:

Findings of Fact: Case 05-P-17. Petitioner Archer Properties, LLC.

Mr. Detert moved to approve the Findings of Fact for Case 05-P-17. Mr. Burns seconded the motion, which carried on a unanimous roll call vote.

Findings of Fact: Case 05-P-22. Petitioner Bucher Development, LLC.

Mr. Detert moved to approve the Findings of Fact for Case 05-P-22. Mr. Burns seconded the motion, which carried on a unanimous roll call vote.

Election of Officers:

Mr. Detert moved to nominate Kevin Breitzke for President. Mr. Burns seconded the motion.

Mr. Detert moved to close the nominations. Mr. Burns seconded the motion.

Motion to nominate Kevin Breitzke for President carried on a unanimous voice vote.

Mr. Burns moved to nominated Robert Detert for Vice-President. Commissioner Harper seconded the motion.

Mr. Burns moved to close the nominations for Vice-President. Mr. Cole seconded the motion.

Motion to nominate Robert Detert for Vice-President carried on a unanimous voice vote.

Staff Appointments:

Mr. Detert moved to reappoint Robert W. Thompson Jr. as Executive Director/County Planner. Mr. Burns seconded the motion, which carried on a unanimous voice vote.

Commissioner Harper moved to appoint Attorney Ken Elwood as the Plan Commission and Board of Zoning Appeals attorney. Mr. Burns seconded the motion, which carried on a unanimous voice vote.

Mr. Breitzke stated I would like to express on behalf of the Board our appreciation of Karen Tallian’s service. He stated she is now a State Senator and she can’t serve both functions at the same time.

TAC Appointments:

Mr. Detert stated I guess there is some question about how many people we can appoint but I would like to see another Plan Commission member appointed.

Mr. Detert moved to appoint Tim Cole to the Technical Advisory Committee. Mr. Burns seconded the motion, which carried on a unanimous voice vote.

Mr. Thompson asked do we want to review this as far as the actual role of TAC.

Mr. Breitzke stated we will discuss that later.

Mr. Detert moved to appoint Robert Thompson, Executive Director and County Planner, David Schelling, Highway Engineer, Kevin Breitzke, County Surveyor and Jack Clem, Code Enforcement Officer to the Technical Advisory Committee. Mr. Burns seconded the motion, which carried on a unanimous voice vote.

Mr. Breitzke asked what are we going to do with the Health Department. He asked are we going to postpone that decision.

Mr. Detert stated I would like some clarification on how many voting members we can have on TAC. He stated I would assume that would take some time for our new attorney to double check that.

Mr. Breitzke stated it would be my hope that I think that we are planning on expanding it. He stated we were working under some guidance that had to do more with our minor subdivisions and some statutes related to that. He stated however, personally I would still like to see the Health Department involved, the Department of Agriculture, particularly if we could get the D.C., the District Conservationist when he is appointed. He stated possibly some people from some other areas of expertise. He asked at this time, do you want to close the nominations for TAC.

Mr. Detert stated I would close them for now and possibly take it up again in two weeks to get some clarification on how many voting members we can have.

Mr. Detert moved to close the nominations for two weeks. Mr. Burns seconded the motion, which carried on a unanimous voice vote.

Case 06-SE-1. Inspection Committee Report for T.J.Z. Properties, LLC, 1587 S. Calumet Rd., Chesterton seeking a Special Exception to permit the operation of a contractor’s storage yard with outside storage for an excavation business to be located on the West side of CR 400 E., between Murvihill Road and U.S. Hwy 30, in Washington Township.

At this time, Mr. Thompson read the Inspection Committee Report.

Commissioner Harper asked in our new ordinance are we going to in any way address this issue. He stated we have certain outside storage areas that are eyesores on commercial roadways.

Mr. Thompson stated this sits off of U.S. 30 off of CR. 400 E. He stated it sits off of U.S. 30 by about 500 feet. He stated it is behind the International Harvester. He stated yes we are addressing the issues that you are discussing.

Mr. Detert moved to forward Case 06-SE-1 to the BZA. Mr. Burns seconded the motion, which carried on a unanimous roll call vote.

Case 05-P-13. Petition of Floramo Partners, 1804 Garnet Court, New Lenox, Illinois seeking primary plat approval for Falling Waters Subdivision to be located on the North side of CR 100 S., approximately ¼ mile East of Lake/Porter County Line road in Porter Township. (To contain 10 lots on 8.09 acres, Property is zoned R-1. Con’t from 1-11-06 mtg. Public Hearing is closed.)

Mr. Breitzke stated I spoke with Mr. Capp and he informed


me that his Uncle had passed away and he has to attend his funeral. He stated Mr. Capp told me he will not be able to be here this evening and he did tell me to report that everything is hooked up but he wants to run it through a test run at the beginning of next week.

Mr. Burns moved to continue Case 05-P-13 to the January 25, 2006 meeting. Mr. Detert seconded the motion, which carried on a unanimous voice vote.

Case 06-FP-1. Petition of ASI Development, LLC c/o William A. Ferngren, Hoeppner, Wagner & Evans LLP, 103 E. Lincolnway, P.O. Box 2357, Valparaiso, seeking secondary plat approval for The Highlands Subdivision to be located on the Southwest corner of CR 150 N. and Hayes Leonard Road in Center Township. (To contain 28 lots on 49.6 acres. Property is zoned R-1.)

William Ferngren stated I am from Hoeppner, Wagner & Evans and I have John Sturgill from McMahon and Associates and Scot Jones here tonight on behalf of the developer. He stated this is the secondary plat of The Highlands Subdivision. He stated the primary plat for this project was approved on July 13, 2005. He stated at that time we continued on with the project and made installation of infrastructure accordance with the plans. He stated we went back to TAC on November 18, 2005 and the project was then forwarded to the Plan Commission’s attention for this meeting this evening. He stated we are platting this entire development at one time so there are 28 lots on 49.6 acres. He stated the bond amount has been approved and we are here seeking your approval.

Mr. Burns asked what is the bond and are there any changes from the primary.

Mr. Ferngren stated there are no changes from the primary and the bond amount $375,000.

Mr. Burns moved to approve Case 06-FP-1 contingent on the bond of $375,000. Mr. Detert seconded the motion, which carried on a unanimous roll call vote.

Case 06-FP-2. Petition of Thomas & Kimberly Metzer, 598 W. 650 S., Hebron, seeking secondary plat approval for Goldenrod Estates to be located at 598 W. and 594 W. 650 S. in Boone Township. (To contain 2 lots on 4.97 acres. Property is zoned R-1.)

Eric Banschbach stated I am from Emil Beeg Land Surveying and I am representing Tom and Kimberly Metzer in this petition.


He stated we are seeking final plat approval for what is to be named Goldenrod Estates Subdivision. He stated this is a 2 lot subdivision of a 4.97 acre parcel, which is the remnant of the original 16.2 acre parcel. He stated this was originally owned by my clients from which an 11.3 acre minor subdivision was platted in November of 1999 and shown on the plat as Boone Minor Subdivision. He stated no part of the minor is included in this subdivision. He stated there is an existing home site, which is located on what is proposed as lot 1 and is the current residence of the Metzer’s. He stated the subdivision was basically created to add one additional building site to be located south of the existing home and shown as lot 2. He stated the Metzer’s plan on building a new home for themselves on lot 2 and selling the home on lot 1. He stated Outlots 1A and 2A will serve as non-buildable portions of their respective lots to meet the open space requirements. He stated ownership of the Outlots will be transferred with their respect lots. He stated this plan was presented to the Porter County Drainage Board for review on March 14, 2005 with no additional regulated drain dedication and we were granted primary plat approval by this Board on May 11, 2005. He stated the only significant change made to the plat since the primary was approved is the adjustment of the south and the east lines of lot 1. He stated after staking the original lot lines my client was made aware that the tree rows as you can see and that are shown on the plat would fall completely on lot 1. He stated therefore my client requested that the lines be adjusted in order to locate at least the south row of the trees on lot 2. He stated their intent was to ensure that they will own the land that the trees are located on in order to ensure their survival. He stated they didn’t want the future owner of lot 1 to be able to remove the trees. He stated the east line of lot 1 was moved 40 feet east and the south line was moved north 30 feet. He stated this adjustment maintains the minimum area and the frontage required for the current zoning and located the tree row onto lot 2. He stated TAC reviewed the plat and their review was favorable with only recommendation for change in the language of the Drainage Board note, which has been made. He stated that being said on behalf of my clients we would respectfully request approval of the final plat of Goldenrod Estates.

Commissioner Harper moved to approve Case 06-FP-2 for secondary plat. Mrs. Marshall seconded the motion.

Discussion:

Mr. Burns asked did changing lot 1 have any affect on the proposed septic system.

Mr. Banschbach stated no.


Mr. Burns asked did the Health Department approve that.

Mr. Banschbach stated yes.

Motion carried on a unanimous roll call vote.

Mr. Breitzke stated we have one other bit of old business that we have to take care of. He stated we need to make our BZA appointment.

Mr. Burns moved to nominate Bob Detert to the Board of Zoning Appeals. Commissioner Harper seconded the nomination.

Mr. Burns moved to close the nominations. Commissioner Harper seconded the motion.

Motion to nominate Bob Detert to the Board of Zoning Appeals carried on a unanimous roll call vote.

New Business:

At this time, Mr. Breitzke read the rules of conduct for a public hearing.

Case 05-Z-13. Petition of Andjelich Project, 485 W. CR 600 N., Valparaiso for a proposed amendment to the Master Plan to rezone a parcel of land from RR, Rural Residential to R-1, Single Family Residential to allow for a single family subdivision on 147.8 acres to be located at the Northeast corner of CR 500 W. and CR 600 N. in Portage Township.

Ted Fitzgerald stated I represent the petitioner Nick Andjelich who is also here representing the Andjelich Group. He stated I am sure most of you are familiar with him. He stated he has been a developer here in Porter County for a substantial period of time. He stated as the President indicated we are here this evening asking for a rezoning to rezone this piece of property that is roughly on the intersections of CR 600 N., CR 500 W. and CR 450 W. He stated it is consisting approximately 140 acres in Portage Township adjacent to South Haven, which is presently zoned as RR. He stated I have some information that I passed out which hopefully will be of some help to you. He stated at the end of this series of several pages is a letter from South Haven Sewer Works, specifically from Mr. Saylor, the President, indicating that the South Haven Water Works has sufficient capacity to serve the proposed subdivision. He stated we could proceed at the present time as RR but we don’t believe that that is good planning. He stated those of you who know me know that for years I have represented communities that are


served by sewer. He stated I was President of Lake Eliza Conservancy District. He stated I believe in sewers. He stated this property drains directly into South Haven. He stated I think to put this on septic systems would be a big mistake. He stated the R-1 zoning is your lowest least dense residential zoning. He stated your ordinance refers to it as low density single family residential district. He stated the major purpose to be here tonight is to request R-1 so that we can proceed with planning to develop this property with sewer. He stated I think everybody in this room knows that there have been problems with South Haven sewage but we have attempted to do some due diligence here. He stated as you can see we’ve had contact with the Fed’s and we believe that this is doable. He stated obviously if it isn’t when we come back here for preliminary approval we are going to have to readdress the entire situation. He stated it is our purpose to develop this property on sewer, which we believe is the way that it should be done. He stated clearly the highest and best use of this property is for residential purposes. He stated you have already determined that when you zoned it RR. He stated I know that there are people here this evening to remonstrate because they like the openness but that was determined a long time ago that this wasn’t going to be farm ground. He stated it adjoins a very high density area. He stated the sewer services are available at our property line. He stated we would be served by the Portage Schools and it is our intention that there will be nothing here except single family homes. He stated there will be no multi or commercial, in fact all of what Mr. Andjelich builds is single family residential. He stated your ordinance provides that the purpose of R-1 is to maintain the character and integrity of existing residential areas and are comprised predominately of conventionally built single family dwellings, which is what he builds and to provide protection against contamination of soil, surface and ground water effluent of septic tanks, sewage disposal systems. He stated that is something we can do. He stated if you look at this larger drawing this is the particular piece of property outlined in yellow. He stated this is the drainage of that piece of property. He stated I don’t think you want septic tanks out here. He stated I don’t think you would want them draining into the residential district that has existed there for a number of years. He stated it is obviously in a highly dense area. He stated I am sure that some of the people would like to preserve this as agricultural but you’ve already determined that this isn’t what it is going to be. He stated beyond that we would request this rezoning.

No one spoke in favor of this petition.

Joe Beurgler, 535 W. 600 N. He stated I presently farm the


property and farm all three sides around this. He stated my biggest concern is where all this water is going to go. He stated I don’t want to be flooded out when this all gets developed. He stated a lot of it does go the way that Mr. Fitzgerald said it does but not all of that water runs off that property through that one area.

Darlene Taylor, 651-1 450 W. She stated I am concerned about the fire protection and the schools. She stated what you said is true. She stated I like the open air but per say it isn’t going to affect me as much it is going to affect all of my neighbors to the left of me. She stated I will still have the farmer’s field in front of me. She stated I know the taxes are going to increase and this all concerns me.

David Schaberg, 597 N. 450 W. He stated the gentleman’s main point for rezoning seems to be a concern about drainage. He stated I assume then that the developer would not be planning to build any more houses if the rezoning were to take place. He stated we will just assume then that the developer does not have a plan to build any more houses with the rezoning then he would be able to if it were simply zoned the way it is now.

Mr. Breitzke stated I think that in a form of a question you are asking if he is going to build more houses with the R-1 zoning than the rural residential and they will answer that in just a minute.

Mr. Schaberg stated another point that I would like to make is that the gentleman mentioned that certainly we do appreciate the open land. He stated I think many people here are concerned about preserving the rural heritage of this area and perhaps we can look around and see the many, many subdivisions that have taken place over the last thirty years and perhaps we can learn something from those and maybe not go down the same road that so many other communities have and I am sure many feel overburdened by these subdivisions. He stated my final point is that I don’t think that we have just a choice between open farm land or rezoning. He stated I think that there is some common ground in between to preserve some of the rural nature yet also recognize that perhaps that land will be developed. He stated I don’t think that we have to make a choice between farm land and a new zoning.

George Roasenbach, 464 W. 600 N. He stated I don’t think it is in the best interest of Porter County to change the zoning to R-1. He stated I don’t know how many houses the gentleman wants to build on an acre of land. He stated Porter County is growing so fast these contractors are getting away with murder.


He stated all you see are these small plastic shacks that are being built and I think that is what is going to come to the area. He stated zoned RR with an acre of land for a house we are going to get some nice homes built on some nice property. He stated it is going to be an asset to the area instead of an area where the neighbor could watch a ball game through his neighbor’s kitchen window. He stated overcrowding is something you people are going to have to address and think twenty years down the line.

Robert Ronk, 460 W. 600 N. He stated one of my concerns is this smaller homes being built in the area. He stated the gentleman here made the comment about the Zoning Board zoning that RR years ago and it was not intended to be farm land back then. He asked why would they want to change it now to R-1. He stated if they were that smart back then to make it RR why would we want to correct what our forefathers already decided. He stated that would be my main concern.

Gerald Dennis, 612 N. 450 W. He stated my base concern is like my neighbors I am encompassed in by 160 acres and this 147 that you are trying to do. He stated my biggest concern like Mr. Buergler is the water. He stated we have a real problem with water. He stated when it rains hard out there I get four and five feet of water in my low spots. He stated there is going to have to be some thought put into this watershed if this goes on. He stated of course like Mr. Ronk said, “Why not leave it RR?” He stated I have been there for over forty years and we never had a problem before. He stated I think that it is a good idea that if you are going to subdivide put it on one acre lots. He stated then you don’t change it to R-1. He stated we never did find out how many houses are going to be per acre anyway. He stated that is a big concern. He stated progress goes on and we all understand that. He stated that is the biggest concern is the water and let’s leave it RR. He stated if he does get it changed to R-1 is that going to affect my corner.

Joe Kobylinski, 659 N. 500 W. He stated I just built a house on 500 W. and I knew it was going to be RR. He stated me and a couple of people went around and talked to 50 to 60 neighbors all in the area. He stated everybody’s response was they wanted to keep it RR. He stated we are not against building and we know we are not going to stop that. He stated we want one house per acre and that is what we think it should be. He stated like Jack said it will improve the area the drainage system won’t be as bad and it won’t be overcrowded. He stated we are against putting two or three houses on one acre. He stated we can handle one acre per house but we are definitely against two or three houses per acre.


Bob Robbins, 476 W. 700 N. He stated I have not heard anybody here address the problem of the sewage situation if 200 to 300 new homes would be built in this area. He stated correct me if I am wrong but I think that I’ve been told that they would probably hook into the South Haven Sewage Department. He stated I have lived there for 35 years and over this period of time I’ve seen the South Haven Sewage Department cited many times for noncompliance. He stated now every time we get a rain fall a lot of raw sewage goes into the creek that runs along side the plant. He stated as a result this all winds up in Lake Michigan. He stated he may be in compliance now and I have been told that he is but I do not know that for sure. He stated in the event of another 200 to 300 homes that would be built there would this sewage facility have the capacity to take care of this new bunch of customers that he is going to have there. He stated I think that this sewage problem is a very serious problem with all of the city’s that are abutting Lake Michigan. He stated we have seen this happen time and time again with Valparaiso, Chesterton, Portage, Lake Station. He stated every time it rains the sewage departments are overloaded so the raw sewage goes into some of the rivers and creeks and winds up in Lake Michigan. He stated to me this is a very serious problem. He stated somewhere along the line we are going to have to address this.

Toni Essary, 468 W. 600 N. She stated my concern is with the drainage also. She stated as Mr. Buergler has stated, as Mr. Ronk has stated and as Mr. Dennis has stated not all of that water drains off in the way that it is saying. She stated from where we are situated we are probably a half of an acre from a pond that Dr. Carlson had put in. She stated last year was our first fall there. She stated in the spring between the melting of the snow going into the pond and water actually draining from across the street onto the pond. She stated we are elevated. She stated we had to hook up a sump system and pump water into Dr. Carlson’s field behind us because if not we were flooded. She stated I am not opposing building homes there. She stated I would like to keep it rural and I do not particularly want to go into R-1. She stated I just feel that it is best for all of us to stay with the rural our forefathers had decided on. She stated I know that in 1980 my family had come before this Board and asked for a mobile home to be put on some different property we have but the same road. She stated it was only due to the fact that my Grandfather was dying and we did not have to put him in our house. She stated the Board basically looked at my family and said to my family, “How do we know that your Grandfather is not going to run a marathon tomorrow?” She stated this caused us to have to build on. She stated the way I am looking at it if you have a problem with drainage two miles down the road and everything on that road moves to the east you are going to have


problems. She stated east of the property, oh no, drainage issues. She stated it is all going down and it is going right towards where I live now. She stated if we couldn’t put a home there for drainage issues then why can we put three or four homes on an acre right across the street for drainage issues.

Mr. Breitzke stated by the way the Board for mobile homes is the BZA and not the Plan Commission. He stated it is two different boards.

Mr. Fitzgerald stated I think that probably since it was brought up first let’s talk about detention. He stated clearly we understand while most of the water from this part of the property the surface water runoff is going to go to the east. He stated there is water that goes in the other directions. He stated as you know, we will be back before this Body with a plan of detention that will meet your standards and will in fact have a limited control of the runoff from this entire piece. He stated we are talking about rezoning today the highest and best use not the number of acres or feet of detention that we are going to have because we are going to have to meet your expectations and requirements. He stated Mrs. Taylor talked about us affecting fire protection and schools. He stated absolutely. He stated if we don’t affect the schools he is going to go bankrupt. He stated we hope people will live there when we build the houses and we hope that they will have children. He stated unfortunately they will probably have a fire in there home from then until now. He stated we will also affect the community by adding greatly to the tax base. He stated Mr. Schaberg was concerned again about drainage from more houses. He stated again, we are going to have to supply detention retention, which will not only eliminate the problem there but make it better. He stated I understand everybody’s comment that they would like to keep it open. He stated I have said this before, many times when my great-grandfather came to Porter County 150 years ago he was probably upset with all the people that came after him. He stated everybody wants to live in the last house. He stated I understand the feeling. He stated I had the same problem with my own home with building around me. He stated but the fact is the efforts of people like you, you’ve made Porter County a wonderful place to live and people want to live here. He stated they want to have their home here and people like Mr. Andjelich want to build a house for them. He stated with regards to Mr. Rosenbach, again, Porter County growth is because people like yourself and the Commissioners have done a good job. He stated I don’t think Mr. Andjelich is going to construct any plastic shacks nor do I believe him to be a murderer. He stated will there be smaller homes? He stated no. He stated we are going to build according to the market that will all be presented to you with preliminary


plat approval. He stated we are going to build what the market will bear. He stated we are not sure even what that is. He stated we are not going to be building three, four, five houses to the acre. He stated R-1 is more like two. He stated two on sewers is better than one on septic. He stated traffic was an issue. He stated we have a great gift here because we have county roads on three sides. He stated we are not going to be in a development where we funnel everybody out in one spot and try to get them in one spot. He stated we can put a variety of entrances around the perimeter that will prevent that from happening. He stated Mr. Dennis was concerned that this zoning would affect his property. He stated obviously it will affect our neighboring property if you approve this but his individual property is not included in the petition and he would not be affected in any legal sense. He stated I think I have answered the question regarding the number of houses for Mr. Kobylinski. He stated Mr. Robbins addressed the issue of sewer. He stated we all understand that it has a problem. He stated I was involved out there with the Home Owners Association years ago. He stated I am very, very much familiar with the utility. He stated in fact, until very recently when these changes were made and upgrades were made by the utility there would’ve been no point in coming here and talking to you because the EPA would not have allowed us to even consider. He stated the EPA has now allowed some development. He stated there is capacity and if we get it fine and if we don’t we will be back to you with another plan. He stated we think it is worthwhile to do the responsible thing and to put in sewers.

Mr. Kobylinski stated I am just one acre north of where they are talking about this subdivision that he wants to put in. He stated he keeps knocking septic systems like no one wants septic systems. He stated I had a mound put in and the Health Department came out and did the perk test and there was no problem with a mound system. He stated he keeps saying that you can’t have a septic system out there but you can. He stated there is another new house right north of me and he went with a mound system too.

Mr. Dennis stated Mr. Fitzgerald brought up the issue of traffic. He asked is the county really going to look at traffic out there. He stated my mailbox is on the other side of the street and I can hardly walk across the street without getting run over. He stated we need to get some extra stop signs or slow that traffic down. He stated that is really a big issue that needs to be addressed. He stated coming off of CR 600 you are taking your life in hands when you pull out on CR 450. He stated if you put another 150 homes out there where is this traffic going to go but right down CR 450.


Mr. Ronk stated I don’t think I quite understood his answer to the question about how many houses when you use the phrase “what the traffic will bear.” He stated that kind of tells me where the money is at. He stated we are going to make it smaller. He stated maybe I missed something but I don’t think I quite understood. He stated the other issue is he is being real courteous about getting the water away and to make sure we put sewer system in. He stated you can also put a sewer system in with two acre lots and it would be a whole lot better for everybody.

Mr. Rosenbach stated he mentioned retention ponds. He stated a percentage of land has to be used for green space. He stated would the retention pond be part of the green space. He stated when this surfaced I went up here to the office and I spoke with the lady in regards to the square footage of land that you have to have to build a home. He stated the lady told me a minimum of 13,000 square feet per home. He stated to me it looks like three houses per acre. He stated the more homes the more money.

Mr. Fitzgerald stated I think Mr. Kobylinski helps my cause. He stated I don’t think that the county wants 148 mound systems out there, although, we think that many of them could be developed without that. He stated they are highly expensive and difficult to maintain etc. He stated with regards to the traffic I have available one of the five licensed professional traffic civil engineers in the State of Indiana to assist us. He stated he happens to be my son. He stated we are going to have a traffic study done. He stated with regards to how many lots per acre it is easy to say 13000 but you forget that there are roads, there are waterways and drainage ditches. He stated you are looking at approximately two houses per acre.

Mr. Kobylinski stated they keep saying approximately. He stated I think the man should know how many houses they plan on building. He stated I also would like to know what price range. He stated we want higher priced houses built there.

Mr. Rosenbach stated the statement he made about 148 septic systems you contradict yourself when you start talking about roads and parks and schools and water. He stated the one acre of land per house somebody can buy five acres of land for a house. He stated you have homes there already with three acres and five acres with one house. He stated don’t push the 148 septic systems.

Mr. Schaberg stated the gentleman mentioned the need to do a traffic study. He stated I think most of the people who live


in the area could just tell you the results of that study right now, which is that CR 450 is overburdened. He stated there is a rush hour that exists from 5:30 a.m. to about 9:00 a.m. and another one that starts about 3:00 p.m. and goes until 6:30 p.m. He stated car after car after car after car. He stated most of which are going ten to fifteen miles over the speed limit. He stated it is out of control right now. He stated I can’t imagine adding another 50 or 100 homes in that area all of which would funnel into CR 450 is going to do to alleviate the problems that we have right now.

Mrs. Essery stated my concern is also with traffic. She stated CR 450 is not only the road that has a lot of traffic on it. She stated CR 600 N. does too. She stated I moved to CR 600 N. in 1979 and at a time that I was there you might see three cars go down the road. She stated now it is constant. She stated I don’t allow my son to play in the front yard because they just come flying down the road. She stated in regards to the septic systems we also have a mound system and whether it is 140 houses with a mound system or a sewer system it doesn’t matter either way. She stated I have an acre and a half of land and I cannot use any of my back yard because I have had such a high standard of septic system put in that nothing can be built back there on this septic system. She stated the septic system pretty much covers my whole back yard. She stated basically what I am getting at is I don’t want to open up my front window and look at another South Haven right in front me.

Clemment Kahn, 450 W. 700 N. He stated I agree with my neighbors and we would like to leave it RR and do a development. He stated where I live at 450 W. 700 N. I stand on my porch and within a minute there is like 100 cars at that intersection. He stated I try to get out of my driveway and I have to wait two and three minutes at a time because everybody has to stop and by the time I try to get out somebody else is pulling out from the stop sign. He stated I think that before the zoning is changed from RR to anything else a traffic study should be done. He stated it shouldn’t be voted on to be in R-1 and then do a traffic study. He stated a traffic study should be done for the safety of the current residents and for the people who would be sold new homes.

Mr. Robbins stated if a home was built on one acre they could live with a septic tank. He asked is that not true? He stated if more than one home is built on an acre they would have to go to a sewage system. He asked would they not?

Mr. Thompson stated you are correct in a sense that you do have to have one acre or more for a septic system to build a house. He stated what the Health Department would look at is one


acre of usable soil on a parcel of land. He stated now if you are going to a sanitary system no. He stated we then look at square footage and it all depends on the design and how they do it. He stated if they go with curb and gutter with storm sewers on it they can go down to a 12,000 or even an 11,000 square foot lot.

Jim Franszek, 448 Nantucket. He stated I would like to make a statement on the traffic problem on CR 450 W. He stated there are a lot of accidents there. He stated with traffic coming either from CR 450 W. going up Nantucket or coming off of Nantucket coming up CR 450 W. He stated there are accidents after accidents.

Carl Higgins, 643 N. 450 W. He stated both my wife and my son have both been hit on CR 450 W. He stated that is a very dangerous intersection. He stated I want to address the septic systems. He stated originally when they were showing the drawing they were showing the runoff going into South Haven and the septic systems would be picking up sewer and taking the runoff down through that neighborhood. He stated septic runoff system is only for top water soil and top water does not get down to septic system and take that water runoff down that ditch that goes right past my house. He stated a lot of that runoff probably only about a quarter of that land comes down through that ditch. He stated the rest of it goes off to the south and east by Dennis’ and Buergler’s. He stated I don’t think that the septic systems in this area are going to be affected with that runoff.

Geraldine Ronk, 460 W. 600 N. She stated I think the main thing is that we don’t want cheap houses and the traffic is not good. She stated we have a septic system and it works fine for us.

Mr. Fitzgerald stated I am going to be very brief. He stated I think we have addressed most of these in the past. He stated most of these are matters for preliminary plat approval. He stated we have not had the engineering done. He stated we don’t know for sure how many houses would be there. He stated do we intend to build high quality homes, absolutely. He stated any of you can go out to Winfield area, Lakes of the Four Seasons and look at Mr. Andjelich’s subdivision. He stated they are beautiful homes. He stated I think that the neighborhood would be proud of them. He stated traffic is a problem and CR 450 obviously is not a place where we are going to want to put much of an exit. He stated I think it is a blessing that we have two other county roads that we can use and four different directions that we can go to get out of there. He stated with regards to the sewer system all of us know that have been around for a long


time that the gentleman who said that it is all under ground. He stated that is right if they are working properly they are under ground. He stated I grew up in Lake Eliza and I could tell you some horror stories. He stated they work for a while and sooner or later our kids or grandkids are going to pay the price for the septic system. He stated I don’t care if it is an expensive mound system or whatever. He stated the Federal Government says the way to do it properly is to run it through a sewer plant. He stated that is what all the forward thinking planners do it if at all possible. He stated here we have the luxury of having it available and adjoining our property. He stated to develop on septics in that type of a situation it would not seem to be good planning.

The public hearing was then closed.

Mr. Burns stated I have a couple of concerns before I vote on this petition. He stated first, I would like to see a traffic study. He stated second, you really don’t have approval for South Haven Sewers right now.

Mr. Fitzgerald stated that is correct.

Mr. Burns stated that is a concern. He asked can you get approval?

Mr. Fitzgerald stated if we can’t get approval we are not going to get preliminary plat approval. He stated we would have to come back with another plan.

Mr. Burns stated I have a problem voting on this without sewer approval.

Mr. Fitzgerald stated if this were preliminary plat approval I could understand it. He stated this is zoning. He stated the requirements of the EPA are that you see from the evidence before you have been met by South Haven at the present time. He stated twice in the past year the EPA under the consent decree has given permission for the operator to expand his territory and add additional service areas. He stated we see no reason that that won’t happen. He stated our “Catch 22” very frankly is that we have been told by the sewer owner that he is not going to go through that hassle if we don’t have the zoning.

Mr. Burns stated we have had other developments in front of us and we have received documentation before.

Mr. Fitzgerald asked from that sewer plant?



Mr. Burns stated yes.

Mr. Fitzgerald stated that is all I can tell you is that he has indicated he doesn’t want to commit to us if we don’t even have the zoning.

Mr. Burns stated thirdly, are you committing to two houses per acre?

Mr. Fitzgerald stated what ever the ordinance says. He stated it is a low density R-1 district. He stated we plan on having a lot of green space and we plan on having the park and we plan on doing all of the things that need to be done.

Mr. Detert stated we have held up as he indicated some petitions or at least one petition where the petitioner did not have firm commitment. He stated as you know we have had a lot of problems in Porter County with sewers. He stated I would disagree that septics are worse than sewers. He stated it depends on the situation and it depends on the septic system. He stated I personally lived in Lake County on a septic system for 15 or 20 years and when they put in sewers I had nothing but headaches. He stated so sewers are not always your answer. He stated you represent our subdivision and we’ve had lots of sewer problems with a private sewer entity. He stated so you can see why this Board would be concerned with the sewer issue.

Mr. Fitzgerald stated and we are too. He stated we will commit to you that we are not going to do this if we don’t get approval.

Mr. Detert stated I understand that but in the meantime it will be rezoned to a smaller size lot. He stated I am not real sure in my mind that we want to do that.

Mr. Cole stated I too have this concern about South Haven Sewer. He stated we know that they have to go before the EPA to get approval. He stated it may not be easy and I can understand why they probably don’t want to do it until they get a commitment on rezoning. He stated I guess I am a little taken back that the county has decided that this is not going to be agriculture. He stated it is not agricultural zoning but RR allows agriculture.

Mr. Thompson stated R-1 allows agriculture too.

Mr. Cole stated then why are you saying that the county determined that there will be no farming here.




Mr. Fitzgerald stated I didn’t mean it that way. He stated I said that they determined there wouldn’t be strictly agriculture.

Mr. Cole stated that sounds a little better. He stated a lot of these people are farming. He stated I know some of them and they are farming quite successfully in that area. He stated I don’t see any reason why they shouldn’t continue farming in that area. He stated it looks like a pretty good area for farming. He stated however, we are here for a rezoning to R-1 and once again you heard the concern of another member that if we allow this to go to R-1 we are stuck with it if you don’t get the approval for South Haven Sewer. He stated we are stuck with R-1 in that area and these people surrounding you are stuck with R-1. He stated to any other developer that comes through with a plan that will pass this Board or the County Commissioners. He stated I see some problems. He stated I would like to ask a couple of questions. He asked do we know the width of CR 600 N. and CR 700 N. and CR 450 W.

Mr. Thompson stated I think one spot I measured…they are generally 20 feet wide pavements. He stated I think CR 500 W. less. He stated it might have been 19 or 18.

Mr. Cole stated I know they are really narrow. He stated a lot of the traffic down these roads is because of the congestion on Hwy 6 and that is why you are getting a lot of speeding. He stated a lot of people who really don’t live in that area are using your roads for short cuts or for fast expediency to get to who knows where. He asked how many cards did you get back? He stated you had 44 notifications mailed and 24 received on the report.

Mr. Thompson stated certification shows that they sent everything out. He stated there was a number of letters that were returned that were marked “unclaimed.” He stated this is the second time that this went out too.

Mr. Fitzgerald stated there was a letter circulated by the neighbors too.

Mr. Read stated as one of the ones advocating the preservation of open space for many, many years I would like to address the question that was raised by one of the people here about what percentage and whether or not the retention pond is included. He stated actually our open space ordinance has a slighting requirement for the amount of percentage depending upon whether or not there are natural features on the land, wetlands or wooded areas or things like that. He stated this particular plot


I think would probably qualify under the strictly agricultural classification with no natural features as identified in our open space ordinance. He stated under those circumstances the developer has a choice of 15% including the retention basin or 10% not including the retention basin. He stated since retention basins usually take up 10% of their own you are really only talking about a 5% net increase of preserve open space. He stated I think the requirement for open space should be probably triple or quadruple what our ordinance says but we have to live with that we were able to get at the time. He stated I would like to use this opportunity to say to the people that are here we only have a few ways to preserve open space. He stated one is you own the land and you can determine whether it stays open or not. He stated two that a small portion of that is set aside by a developer. He stated to small of a portion. He stated third it can be bought by the County Park System or some arrangement is made with the private owner with a not-for-profit land preservation group of which there are several in Porter County. He stated I want to say first of all I hope you give your full support to the County Park System and the purchase of the land when an opportunity arises. He stated also that you support any means that are available to preserve open space. He stated there have been bills down at the Indiana Legislature. He stated almost every session has one, which provides for farm preservation of farm land. He stated it doesn’t have to be a wetland or a wooded land or a park land. He stated they usually get shot down. He stated I would advise you to try to keep an eye open and an ear open on anything having to do with farm preservation. He stated when I look at these things the first thing I do is try to measure this against our County Master Plan. He stated our County Master Plan basically discourages development way out in the boonies and encourages development, which is adjacent to developed communities, what we call the urban fringe. He stated now this particular tract is surrounded on three sides by agricultural but one side is definitely would have to qualify as an urban area. He stated so it probably does qualify as an urban fringe area. He stated however, there are other situations that are involved here. He stated one of the reasons that they encourage the development to urban fringe is that hopefully they have a chance to tie into a properly functioning sewer system. He stated all things considered I have lived in a rural area all my time in Indiana and I know what a malfunctioning septic tank is. He stated there are problems with septic tanks and there are problems with the sewer system. He stated however, overall generally speaking a good sewer system is the best bet. He stated if and when, when and if you build I would prefer that you be on a sewer system. He stated you are



not there yet. He stated so I think we can’t really consider this without knowing whether or not you have a consent decree that has been met and whether or not this particular area can be included in the South Haven Sewer System. He stated also in some past instances while I have been on the Board we have made a developer have some idea or show some idea of what the plot plan would be before we gave him the rezoning. He stated once the rezoning is done that is done. He stated I don’t know how that stacks up legally but we have required that. He stated I understand that your client doesn’t want to pay the money for an engineer to go through this without getting his rezoning but other people have done that. He stated other developers have come in showing where the streets are going to be, where the open space is going to be and the exact number of houses under the circumstances. He stated not knowing whether you get the sewers you are really talking two basic plans. He stated it might interest you to know that our Master Plan recommends two acres if you use septic tank and well. He stated I think that you are somewhat premature in this. He stated I hope that my comments will be taken up by some of the people in the audience.

Mrs. Marshall stated I have several things I would like to know. She stated first of all you say that you have 148 acres so I am sure that with the application of this petition to rezone to R-1 you must have figured out how many you can get on the RR zoning and how many you are going to get on the R-1 zoning.

Mr. Fitzgerald stated I think that we have a rough idea.

Mrs. Marshall asked what are we talking about?

Nick Andjelich stated we did some preliminary soil borings but we didn’t test the whole site. He stated as you know soils very quite a bit so to tell you how many on septic is a best guess. He stated if I had to guess I would say 100 to 120.

Mrs. Marshall stated on RR.

Mr. Andjelich stated on RR but I am guessing.

Mrs. Marshall asked how many would you have on an R-1 if this proposal is approved.

Mr. Andjelich stated the typical average would be about two. He stated again you have the set aside that reduces you down. He stated you have retention detention, the roads. He stated the best guest would be two. He stated two units per acre. He stated so we are talking about 300 homes.



Mrs. Marshall stated versus 120 on the RR. She asked is that right?

Mr. Andjelich stated yes that is right.

Mrs. Marshall asked is there a pipeline that runs through this?

Mr. Andjelich stated yes there is. He stated that is going to take away net usable acreage.

Mrs. Marshall asked do you know what the setback is from a pipeline?

Mr. Andjelich stated not this particular one.

Mr. Fitzgerald stated I think it is 75-feet on each side.

Mrs. Marshall stated so 175 foot easement through the property. She stated I have to tell you that in South Haven I think you are indicating that this is the drainage area for this piece of property. She stated I have to tell my personal opinion is it don’t look very good. She stated I think that it could have been better done as far as what is out there. She stated it looks like a war zone.

Mr. Fitzgerald stated it won’t on our side.

Mrs. Marshall stated you said that you have three county roads. She stated you have CR 450, CR 600 and what is the other county road.

Mr. Andjelich stated CR 500 W.

Mrs. Marshall stated I too am very concerned about South Haven Sewer Plant. She stated I see that in the packet of material that you gave us tonight that this letter from South Haven is dated, well it has no date at the top of the letter but at the bottom where Saylor signed it it says 1-10. She stated so apparently you obtained this yesterday.

Mr. Fitzgerald stated yes.

Mrs. Marshall stated I don’t think that is proper notification on your part. She stated I think that you should have been in discussion because…

Mr. Fitzgerald stated we have been in discussion for a long time. He stated that is when he got around to sending it to me. He stated Nick has been talking to him for months and months.

Mrs. Marshall stated there is no dated letter per say in here. She stated you have to admit that 1-10 is when you got it.

Mr. Fitzgerald stated yes.

Mrs. Marshall stated the trunk line that would service this particular property is not approved. She stated he hasn’t approved it enough to permit any more houses on this trunk line. She stated it is going to take lots of money to bring it up to that approval. She stated then once you do that you’d have to go to the State Regulatory Commission to be included in the territory.

Mr. Fitzgerald stated yes there is a lot to be done. He stated I am not aware that it is not done. He stated the man certifies to us that he has the capacity. He stated capacity means more than just the plan. He stated that means that he has the line capacity. He stated if that is incorrect that is news to me.

Mrs. Marshall stated I think that is why this letter is written rather vague. She stated the other thing I would like to say to the people in the audience is they want to keep it farm land. She stated you can farm in any district. She stated you can farm in industrial, commercial, and residential. She stated that is not the overriding thing. She stated it is going to be the density that you bring to this piece of property that I think that they are trying to say they are concerned about. She stated as you know Mr. Fitzgerald, I am from that area so that road 600 from CR 450 going west for many, many years was a washboard sort of. She stated you had to slow down but it shook all the bolts out of anything you were driving. She stated that road has only been paved for I would say in the last ten years. She stated I could not support this with what you have given us. She stated I think that you are premature in coming here first of all to ask for an R-1 zoning. She stated the overall area certainly still supports agriculture. She stated I think that we would be premature until South Haven…I don’t think we should get in the position where it is push and shove here. She stated if this Plan Commission gives permission then you go to the State or Saylor goes to the State and says that Porter County Plan Commission approved it. She stated I don’t think we should get ourselves in that position. She stated as far as the intersection of CR 450 and CR 600, boy is that a dangerous intersection. She stated it doesn’t line up and it is not involved in this property that you are involved in. She stated the county hasn’t done anything up to this time. She stated when you pull out of 600 onto 450 you take your life in your hands. She stated it is going to increase the traffic. She stated everybody has two cars today and if they


have kids they have more. She stated you are going to put more traffic on CR 450 going south and so then you have the entrance to the Commons and then you have the entrance to SR 130, which is very dangerous. She stated there is no traffic light. She stated also at one time there was consideration about the bridge over there on SR 130 extending straight across to 500. She stated I don’t know where those plans are. She stated I have a very strong feeling that this is a little bit premature. She asked where have you built houses, Mr. Andjelich.

Mr. Andjelich stated Portage, Chesterton, Valparaiso, Crown Point, Hobart, Schererville, Munster, Indianapolis and pretty much all over the Midwest.

Mrs. Marshall stated I would have strong reservations about this South Haven. She stated I think that is the overriding thing. She stated you don’t have that sealed down enough.

Mr. Andjelich stated correct me if I am wrong but from my side of the table if we get this rezoned to R-1 and I don’t get the sewers I can still build to RR and do septics out there. He stated so it is upon me to do whatever I have to do to prove back to that Board that I can service R-1 lots. He stated if I can’t do it and it is still zoned R-1, so what. He stated I then do septics. He stated I can’t do a septic on an R-1 lot and for me to go out…To me it is the opposite. He stated I need the zoning change to do all you want me to do and I will do it and then you approve my subdivision. He stated if I can’t do what you are asking me to do I’ll go back to the septics and it is zoned R-1.

Mr. Breitzke stated the significant difference will be the width of the lot. He stated in R-1 you can go to 100 foot lot and there are bonuses for sewer and storm sewer.

Mr. Andjelich stated but I am still building to your current ordinances and I will comply with what’s in the book.

Mrs. Marshall stated this is in the Pope Limited Trust. She asked isn’t that true?

Mr. Andjelich stated I believe so.

Mrs. Marshall stated you are the developer. She stated you are not anticipating buying this.

Mr. Andjelich stated no, I am going to buy this. He stated it is contingent obviously on some things.

Mr. Fitzgerald stated if we are talking about 150 homes on


this piece of property then you can’t build a sewer system for 150 homes. He stated what is one of the major problems with South Haven. He stated they don’t have enough flow they don’t have enough customers, they don’t have enough money coming in. He stated this would greatly assist that utility. He stated Mr. Saylor desperately wants this. He stated this is something that would be very favorable to him. He stated it is just the fact that he doesn’t want to proceed and tie up guarantee us, which he has to do on a CTA and he has to do to the EPA. He stated then he does that and commits this to us and guess what you don’t rezone it and then he is up the creek because he is committed this capacity to us. He stated so Mr. Andjelich is left in a chicken egg situation. He stated I understand that and I really wish and I tried for a long period of time to come in here with a letter. He stated what he has finally agreed to do is say that we get it rezoned and he will apply and he has the capacity. He stated he won’t do it the other way.

Mrs. Marshall stated Mr. Saylor has a moratorium on adding any houses at this time. She stated he brought himself to that consent agreement and he is involved in it in the first place. She stated there has to be some major improvements made before he is going to be allowed to hook any new houses.

Mr. Fitzgerald stated I understand that. He stated we will not get that approval unless that happens and we are not only going to attempt to do that but we are going to assist him. He stated I have a lot of experience in that. He stated you may remember I represented the Salt Creek people in the battles out there and we were successful in those battles. He stated we are willing to agree that if we don’t get the sewer letter we’ll develop this as RR and we will put that in writing and we will agree to it.

Commissioner Harper stated when I am done I ask Mr. Thompson to take a minute and explain to Mr. Buergler, Schaberg, Ms. Essary and Mr. Ronk our new Drainage Ordinance just so they know in case there is any future hearings on this because I think that this ordinance will have a…and he will tell you about it. He stated basically it says that if water is going to come off of this property it is going to go into a regulated drain or they are going to buy an easement from you one of the two. He stated they are not going to put any more water on it or any less. He stated let me say this. He stated what we heard here tonight in my opinion is a discussion of probably the biggest problem facing the county that we are faced with and some of the most important business in the county. He stated there is a drive and it is almost like you have to stand up and salute the flag that we have to build on every inch of every land that we have. He stated what


we have to do in my opinion is respect property rights but also we have to protect those that are here. He stated we have to make sure and what these people have stood up and spoke they have spoken from their heart. He stated they live in this area and these are concerns that they have. He stated I think that if there is ever a chance that we have to really have some input into what is going to happen it is when we are faced with a rezone. He stated we all know that if it is rezoned we are going to be sitting here and attorney’s are going to be looking at us telling us that we have to allow this and we have to allow that. He stated once we rezone it that is the end of it. He stated so we have a chance right here and I think that we need to know a lot more about this particular project before we even consider that. He stated I think that this is an area that we have to be extremely careful with because I think that there have been some really bad mistakes. He stated I feel bad that all the houses out there don’t have sidewalks and that we haven’t addressed the road problems more. He stated I will tell the people that are here that I have been at that corner of CR 450 and CR 600 with the Sheriffs Department and the man that handles the insurance for the county and the head of the Highway Department and the Highway Engineer trying to figure out what to do about that corner. He stated we are going to continue to address that. He stated as you know one of the big problems is that it is an uneven corner. He stated it should have never been created that way but that is one of the big problems. He stated there is a traffic issue here.

Mr. Fitzgerald stated we are requesting that this be continued and we are given the opportunity to provide you with the additional information.

Commissioner Harper stated if we continue this for more information I think that the public should have a chance to speak again.

Mr. Burns moved to continue Case 05-Z-13 and to reopen the public hearing.

Mr. Breitzke stated do we have a date certain.

Mr. Thompson stated do you want to table it until they have definite information.

Mr. Fitzgerald stated that makes sense because I have no idea how long.

Mr. Breitzke stated how are we going to put notice out. He stated right now we have signs at the intersection will those suffice or do we have to do mailings.

Attorney Elwood stated if you table without picking a date certain you will need to renotify.

Mr. Thompson stated require the petitioner to notify by first class mail.

Mr. Detert asked what are anticipating bringing back to us that we have not already heard.

Mr. Fitzgerald stated I have been requested to have a traffic study done and to have a definitive letter from the utility.

Mr. Breitzke stated also a proposed layout of the development.

Commissioner Harper asked is there anyone who feels that we should have more than just a conceptual drawing or is there anything else that we should look at.

Mr. Read stated I think that any drawing that comes in should show where your retention basin would be, where your green space would be, your roads and the number of houses.

New motion reads as follows:

Mr. Burns moved to table Case 05-Z-13 for more information and to reopen the public hearing. Mr. Detert seconded the motion, which carried on a unanimous roll call vote.

Case 06-Z-1. Petition of Keith Freyenberger, 540 S. 100 W., Kouts, Indiana for a proposed amendment to the Master Plan to rezone a parcel of land from AG, Agriculture & Open Space to RR, Rural Residential to allow a single family subdivision on 40 acres to be located on the Northeast corner of CR 450 E. and SR 8 in Pleasant Township.

Keith Freyenberger stated this is my son, Aaron Freyenberger. He stated I am representing myself tonight on this rezoning of this 40 acre parcel that we own East of Kouts about two and a half miles. He stated I would first like to make mention of the fact that this is not a low density area. He stated I sent out 21 cards to various interests in the community and on all three sides. He stated it is broke up into smaller parcels. He stated this seems to be in a denser area East of Kouts. He stated farm land has been dedicated to the north. He stated I have actually sold that parcel off. He stated I no longer own it. He stated these 40 acres is all the land that I own in this area. He stated I went ahead and did the work to


show you what I have in mind. He stated it shows 22 lots on this 40 acre parcel, which brings it almost two acres per divided lot as suggested by the County Plan. He stated also I went and delineated the hydric soils. He stated we were guessing before exactly where the hydric soils were and they come out real favorable here. He stated they follow the public legal drain that flows approximately through the middle on an angle, the Hannon Ditch. He stated this coincides nicely with 15% propose green area including the retention basin. He stated we have committed ourselves to install an infrastructure road and utilities to minimize frontage on the highways and to get lots back away from the highway there. He stated I believe it is pretty self explanatory. He stated I believe you all have drawings of what we are proposing. He stated we have developed in the past and we have had a pattern of developing nice homes. He stated they are stick built homes from $150,000 to $250,000 homes. He stated these homes would really compliment the area, which would increase area values of homes. He stated it is a nice area with nice homes. He stated also the drainage is real good and the soils are good for septics. He stated we have also had experience developing Aaron Estates and Rilestone Point. He stated we are acquainted with regulations and requirements that your Board has and are more than willing go meet all requirements.

No one spoke in favor of this petition.

Glenn Hefner, 486 E. SR 8. He stated the first thing right within the area there is a cattle feeder that fees over 100 head of cattle which is within a half mile of it. He stated I am sure the people that build there all will say they want to come to the country but once they get to the country they don’t want the smell. He stated it is an agriculture community and I have been in the fertilizer chemical business all my life and I have worked for Chester’s for 40 years. He stated every time someone sells a subdivision or a house or frontage when you go spread fertilizer or chemicals no matter how perfect you do it you have a complaint. He stated they don’t want you spreading they don’t want this or they don’t want that. He stated they want to be in the country but they want to be in the city also. He stated there is a hog farm that is just east of it, which is confinement hog set up. He stated there are many other animals and things in the area. He stated there is already a big traffic problem along SR 8. He stated you can ask any of the school bus drivers. He stated it is terrible all the semi’s that run SR 8 now. He stated it is proposed that 15 of the lots or so are going to come right out onto SR 8 and the other lots I don’t know how it is set up or how the entrance is to them or how they are going to get in or out off of CR 450. He stated it doesn’t show that. He stated


I just feel where this is I think what Mrs. Marshall just said, “We are out in the boonies and let’s keep the farm ground farm ground.” He stated this is basically pretty much out in the boonies. He stated there is a problem in the area with wet basements already. He stated we have a problem in the spring every year. He stated that is one reason our basement is not carpeted. He stated we are only in the ground 32 inches.

Darl Jarnecke, 487 E. SR 8. He stated I have three very short concerns. He stated I am just asking the Board to find the courage and the resolve to combat these and all developers who constantly come at you to try to go to a rezoning after the additional viewing. He stated we just ask you to consider seriously the county plat when it comes to agriculture as this is definitely an agricultural area. He stated secondly I have known the Freyenberger family and the Good families for years. He stated I find them to be extremely nice people; however, you have given them a right that the previous zoning be removed and the opportunity to sell off their property in which they could potentially get a reasonable profit. He stated to consider a rezoning here would possibly grant them an opportunity for excessive profits, which then comes at my expense because that is changing the area that I live in. He stated finally I ask the Board to use your fiduciary responsibility that will protect the rights of us who live in the area for some 20 to 30 years or longer. He stated we chose country living when country living was not cool. He stated we recognize that there was and had a foresight to know what country living offered. He stated why should we have to loose that today.

Susan Sanders, 788 S. 450 E. She stated we are a little bit different than Daryl in that we just moved there to our property this past summer. She stated our property is located directly to the west across the street. She stated part of when we bought the property this summer was that we had heard that rezoning had been attempted and turned down. She stated that is why we purchased the ten acres that we did purchase. She stated I am not sure how Mr. Freyenberger defines a densely populated area. She stated in the one mile from SR 8 to CR 450 that we live on there are three homes. She stated to me I would not consider that very densely populated. She stated you are going to go from three homes on that stretch of one mile road to eight with frontage property there, which to me it tremendously changes that one mile stretch of road that is our access road to our ten acres of property. She stated we also don’t see those small development areas as increasing our property values but decreasing it because we have a ten acre wooded lot and we think that it will harm our property value.



Ron Sanders, 788 S. 450 E. He stated we have lived in Pleasant Township or Kouts my entire life and Susan has for the last twenty years or so. He stated we are not new to the area by any means. He stated one concern that I do have is obviously children in that area playing. He stated the Richards have children and the Van Dyke’s do. He stated there are a lot of children in that area. He stated to increase traffic by our estimation early 22 lots 44 cars and more children and that is going to drastically change the traffic in that area. He stated one other concern is the frontage on CR 450. He stated to me this isn’t a development as much as legalized frontage development what we have tried to get away from the last 10 to 15 years.

Dave Sharp, 483 E. SR 8. He stated I was concerned when I came to the meeting a few months ago when it was rejected about the traffic flow on SR 8. He stated as the other people have mentioned the trucks fly down the highway and I don’t see any up on the print out here for any kind of an exit or frontage entrance off of CR 450. He stated again, I have been there 15 years and I moved from Lake County, Whiting, with 37 foot lots to Griffith to get out to the country and now I am being surrounded again by homes. He stated I just wanted to voice my opinion that I was opposed to it.

Craig Snyder, 169 E. Lee Drive. He stated I have definite concerns about increased drainage problems. He stated my family owns 180 acres one-eighth of a mile south of this property. He stated this proposed development with seven-eighths of a mile had a ditch running through our property. He stated in addition my family owns another 540 acres one mile to the north of the proposed development. He stated all of our land is located in the Hannon Ditch Crooked Creek Watershed as evidence to property tax ditch assessment and is highly depended on the drainage provided by these two waterways. He stated to emphasis our dependence on the Hannon Ditch. He stated I appeared before the County Drainage Board in the spring of 2002 and requested that the ditch be cleaned with the property tax dollars beginning at CR 900 S. to the south and end at its most northern point in the vicinity of CR 600 S. He stated the Hannon Ditch had previously been cleaned south of CR 900 S. prior to 2002. He stated the Drainage Board complied with my request cleaning the Hannon Ditch from CR 900 S. to SR 8 in the spring of 2002 and cleaning from SR 8 to CR 600 S. in 2003. He stated I have lived in this area since 1968, which is 38 years and I would like to express to you that historically all the land in the vicinity of the proposed development has been subject to a high water table. He stated it appears that the County Health Department acknowledges the presence of high aquatic table as a number of the newer


individual homes surrounding the proposed development have mound septic systems or septic field perimeter drain tiles installed. He stated from my experience of working with our soil it is very common for the water table to be within two feet of the top of the ground. He stated there have been numerous occasions where a significant number of our acres have had standing water for extended period of time. He stated as an example just a year ago late winter our land to the north of the proposed development experienced flooding to the extent of a half mile long by six feet deep the county road ditch was overflowing with water and our adjacent land north of this ditch covering approximately 80 acres was under water. He stated the water in my mother’s yard was over a foot deep. He stated the high water a year ago is actually occurred numerous times during the years that we owned the land and posses physical and economic challenges to planting, raising and harvesting a crop. He stated as recent as the spring of 2002 a high water table and heavy rainfall in mid May resulted in the need to replant 120 acres out of a 260 acre field of corn due to flooding. He stated it is my opinion that the zoning change of the proposed development with septic systems, street and land loss to the footprint of the homes will only increase the water runoff that the Hannon Ditch will be required to accommodate. He stated an area that is already prone to drainage limitations I believe this housing development will have a negative financial and emotional impact on our family farm land and our surrounding neighborhood as well. He stated approving the zoning change and the proposed development at this time will likely set a precedent for future development of other acreage in the vicinity, which further compounds the drainage problems. He stated given that the Hannon Ditch has recently been cleaned its ability to handle the current water flow is as good as can be expected. He stated the County and existing property owners would have no further options to improve the waterway and attempt to address the additional drainage requirements of the proposed development. He stated I respectfully ask that you deny the agriculture to residential zoning change and the proposed development. He stated the zoning change that collects the impact of the forces of nature and the responsibility that the Plan Commission has to protect the property of those who live and own in the area surrounding the development.

Mr. Freyenberger stated first of all I would like to point out that I am a farmer myself and if farming was really good I wouldn’t have to resort to this type of thing but we have chose to do this. He stated I am also concerned when chemical applications are made & fertilizer applications are made. He stated that is why I like this parcel. He stated it is surrounded on three sides by homes and small lots. He stated one side is the agricultural land, which I am going to continue to


farm. He stated also there are hog and cattle farms in the area. He stated that is why I chose this area because it is a safe distance from both operations. He stated it is awfully hard to sell property with a fowl odor of hog and cattle farms in the area. He stated people don’t want to buy homes in that type of a situation. He stated I believe that the quality of the air in this area would attract buyers and there is a big demand for home sites in Pleasant Township. He stated also I would like to make note that on the west side of CR 450 E. that that parcel is divided into ten acre parcels. He stated there will probably be more homes with your stipulations in the future. He stated that will just be a matter of time when that could possibly be homes in that area also. He stated I don’t believe that this is in the boonies. He stated I believe this is by virtue to the fact that there are homes all around it and a subdivision right to the south. He stated it simply blends in with the community. He stated I believe that it wouldn’t be a negative impact on the community. He stated it would be a positive impact because there would be new homes and nice homes. He stated a lot of the homes in the area are not new any more. He stated they have a little bit of age and I think that this would be a perk to the area. He stated also I would like to mention the drainage problems. He stated this question here is a small ditch and it barely trickles most of the year. He stated I know about drainage and I have no problems with the infrastructure that we are going to develop and I believe that there will probably be less water than there is now because there will be a retention pond and we are going to spend lots of money to make sure that it is better than it is now. He stated people need to realize that people plant trees and they plant grass. He stated there is going to be a lot of tall grass and there is going to be a green area planted. He stated as a farmer and the way farmers farm now for a good part of the year the fields are open. He stated there is no vegetation on them. He stated it is prone to erosion. He stated we know that as farmers. He stated I sincerely believe that there is going to be less and this will help address the problem instead of create a problem. He stated also we are not proposing basements. He stated I am not suggesting that these houses have basements in them. He stated that is really not an issue. He stated I am not afraid of the water table. He stated the majority of the houses are coming out to SR 8. He stated if we can’t access a highway and if the highway can’t handle the traffic what is the solution. He stated we are taking most of the traffic right out to the highway. He stated I don’t think we can get any better than that. He stated also these six lots won’t be accessed to CR 450. He stated we set back our houses evenly about 90 feet normally from the road, which gives a big front yard.



Mr. Snyder stated I guess the question I would have first of all appears that the green space is aligning the Hannon Ditch, which I believe is county property so I am not sure if that can be included as green space for this particular development. He stated as far as the retention pond I can have 600 acres under water with our land and I don’t see how this little retention pond is going to provide any benefit or relief or improvement to our drainage situation.

Mr. Sanders stated Mr. Freyenberger said that he wouldn’t have to resort to this type of thing if farming was better right now. He stated to me that means he is conceding that this isn’t good for this area or community. He stated to me that is exactly what it is sounding like. He stated second point I wanted to make was the gentleman who owns ten acres next to me was in my home the other day and he was very adamant that he wants one house as deep in the woods as you can get.

Mr. Sharp stated I take issue on what Mr. Freyenberger said about the older homes in the area. He stated my home is 40 years old and it was just recently appraised at three times the value at what he is talking about his homes will be. He stated I don’t think that him building $150,000 homes in my area is going to enhance the value of my property, his property, his property, his property that I know of what their values are. He stated this is only going be drag my property value down.

Mr. Jarnecke stated I have lived there for twenty some years and I do have a basement in my house. He stated we keep double sump pumps in the sump pump holes. He stated the water usually runs continuously until mid summer when the farmers’ irrigators kick off. He stated then the water table drops and my sump pumps have a rest. He stated I can say with the cleaning of the two ditches the ditch that has been mentioned and the Crooked Creek Ditch within the last few years helped the water table within that area.

Robert Hott, 482 E. SR 8. He stated I built my house in 1962 and since then I have had problems with water in my basement. He stated I only went in the ground about 36 inches, which was about four inches too much. He stated there is definitely a water problem there. He stated the other thing is I feel like if you own property you should be able to do with it what you would like to do. He stated however, this is not 1960. He stated in 1960 you could smoke any place you wanted to and you can’t today. He stated fortunately the impact of humanity is just overcoming our ability to handle it in some areas. He stated lets keep some areas open for our future generations. He stated once you change this area adjacent areas will be changed in the future. He stated in this case lets keep it agricultural.

Mr. Freyenberger stated I am sorry if I offended any of the neighbors because it is a really nice neighborhood with a lot of really nice homes. He stated I do believe that our building quality and the way that we develop is an asset to a community. He stated also in reference to the one statement made, yes farm prices are bad right now. He stated I would like to reiterate the fact that I believe that we are just filling in a hole of an area that has homes that is a densely populated area. He stated we are simply filling in a hole. He stated we are not asking for rezoning of a big parcel of land that is going to affect a neighborhood. He stated I don’t believe this is negatively from Agriculture to RR. He stated I know the neighbors seem to get along real well out in that area. He stated I hope you respect my property rights here that we can simply pursue this avenue.

Mr. Hefner stated he said about the so called houses that are in the area but all the houses in the area but all the houses in the area most of us have five to seven acres.

The public hearing was then closed.

Mr. Burns stated a have a couple of concerns. He stated first this is spot zoning. He stated second the other house values are much more and they are larger. He stated also the water table; I know you said you may not have basements but if the water table is so shallow how about the foundations and the septic systems.

Mr. Detert stated I have some of the same concerns of water.

Mr. Cole stated I certainly have some concerns. He stated I just looked at the soil map and one of the soils up on the northwest corner pretty much along CR 450 E. pretty much says “no basements.” He stated it sure sounds like from listening to the rest of the people here. He stated you Mr. Freyenberger admit that you would not recommend basements in that area is that right.

Mr. Freyenberger stated again I am a farmer. He stated this is a very light soil farm. He stated I have a lot of acres and this is the type of ground you irrigate. He stated it has seasonably higher water tables but there are State standards to take care of this stuff. He stated you have to remember I wouldn’t want to sell a house to somebody that is going to have a problem. He stated I feel good about this area and there are State standards and we are not suggesting basements in this area. He stated I do feel confident that we can build quality homes that people will be happy with. He stated we had John McQuestion


out and we delineated the soil and we seen the seasonal high water tables and all of that. He stated we can get septic on there very easily to meet State standards on that.

Mr. Cole stated lots on CR 450 E. are going to open out to CR 450 E.

Mr. Freyenberger stated absolutely.

Mr. Cole stated you anticipate two acre lots.

Mr. Freyenberger stated yes it averages out with the green space and all that. He stated it is not quite two acres.

Mr. Cole stated just driving past the area and trying to imagine 22 homes in that area right there on that little corner. He stated there is no question that somebody is going to come along and say that they have 22 homes over there and I have these forty acres over here and if they got it so why can’t I get it. He stated I have a problem with it. He stated I will have to listen to the rest of the Board.

Mr. Read stated I agree that I don’t think this green area meets the intent of the open space ordinance. He stated it is along a ditch. He asked is that a regulated ditch.

Mr. Breitzke stated yes it is a regulated drain. He stated it is also surrounded by hydric soils.

Mr. Read stated there is a certain distance, which can be modified. He asked is it 75-feet on either side.

Mr. Breitzke stated the 75-feet is right of entry for the Board to do its maintenance.

Mr. Read stated the purpose of a green area is to provide a recreational area for the people to live in the subdivision, which means that you have to have so access to the green area. He stated the green area doesn’t necessarily have to be developed with trails and picnic areas. He stated that is up to the developer. He stated it has to be owned by a separate entity and not you. He stated a Property Owners Association or a 501C-3 or donated to a park district. He stated something that would permanently protect it and make it available for some form of recreational use. He stated I have spent many years living with high water tables and wet basements. He stated you have to figure the water table at the worst time of the year. He stated two feet was mentioned. He stated your water table is two feet below the surface you cannot put in a septic tank and dispersal


field. He stated you have to have a certain distance below pipes the dispersal pipes and you have to cover them. He stated I think 30-inches is the current.

Mr. Breitzke stated no. He stated it is 24-inches.

Mr. Read stated that means that the pipes would have to be right at the surface of the ground in order to get your 24-inches under the pipes. He stated it is one thing to live with a marginal septic system when you have ten acres around you. He stated that is another thing when you have just a certain number of feet between houses here. He stated that is one of the problems that I have with this is that it doesn’t give any dimensions or acreages or soil types on the map that I have. He stated I don’t think it is suitable for this many houses being this close together on a septic system. He stated I will agree that there might be some dispute as to whether it is agricultural or not but I have been out there and I have looked over the area and it is as agricultural as I know of in Porter County. He stated I don’t think it meets the Master Plan requirement.

Mrs. Marshall stated I have a question. She asked why is this on the agenda when we just heard it last year. She stated I thought there was a year waiting period. She stated it says that it was before the Commission in the year 2004 and I wasn’t here in 2004 and we heard it last year and that was 2005.

Mr. Thompson stated I questioned it but they did change the configuration of it.

Mrs. Marshall stated who determined that the configuration or the change was enough to be heard tonight.

Mr. Thompson stated it was a different description from what was previously heard.

Mrs. Marshall stated I would agree with Mr. Read that this concept drawing doesn’t show how they are going to get off of SR 8. She stated it doesn’t have anything to do with open space and if it was going to be dedicated through a Property Owners Association and who is going to take care of it. She stated I think it lacks in what I would think would be subdivision. She stated it lacks detail and it is in an area…spot zoning is not illegal but it is a good catch word. She stated in a way it is spot zoning. She stated it is agricultural all around it. She stated I just don’t think we have enough to go on with no sizes of lots. She stated it says here that the engineer and surveyor is Davies Rensberger. She stated I don’t see any of their notes on here. She stated I know that you are interested in selling it


and you may have a valid reason but I don’t think that this kind of rezoning is good for the intent of our ordinance.

Commissioner Harper stated I think that it simply comes down to this. He stated this is an agricultural area and if we zone it this way there is going to be someone here tomorrow next to it. He asked are we going to have any agricultural areas left in Porter County. He asked are we going to have any place left in Porter County where a young couple wants a little hobby farm or whatever you want to call it on ten acres. He stated I think that we have to maintain these areas and if we do this we might as well open up the whole area and say that we are going to subdivide the area. He stated how are you going to stop the guy next door. He stated what are you going to say to him.

Commissioner Harper moved to forward Case 06-Z-1 to the County Commissioners with an unfavorable recommendation. Mr. Detert seconded the motion.

Discussion:

Mr. Breitzke stated that you are quite a distance from Kouts and I don’t know that Kouts is really growing in that direction. He stated it appears that it is growing more to the north and to the west. He stated it probably is going to be a long time before residential grows out that way. He stated my ongoing concern is when we have subdivisions removed from the cities and from our highway departments we need to plow the streets and emergency responders out in the country along with our school buses having extra distances to travel. He stated it does have an impact on public service.

Commissioner Harper stated let me add something to that. He stated certain people are living in a farming community and that is their way of life.

Mr. Breitzke stated that there is one issue. He stated last year or whenever we heard this it was withdrawn from the Commissioners so there wasn’t a final action by the Commissioners.

Motion carried on the following ballot vote:

Burns - Yes Cole - Yes Detert - Yes
Harper - Yes Marshall - Yes Read - Yes
Breitzke - Yes

This case will be heard by the County Commissioners on February 7, 2006 at 6:00 p.m.


Case 06-P-1. Petition of Carmen Good Builders, 275 S. 150 E., Valparaiso seeking primary plat approval for Meadowgate Subdivision Phase “B” to be located on the West side of CR 150 E., between CR 600 S. and CR 700 S. in Morgan Township. (To contain 25 lots on 37.38 acres. Property is zoned R-1.)

Don Bengel stated I am here tonight with David Appel, Mr. Good’s attorney and John McQuestion who is a Soil Scientist. He stated Meadowgate Subdivision Phase B primary plat is what we are hearing tonight. He stated it only has 24 lots and not 25 because we eliminated one. He stated the original primary plat for the entire subdivision was passed on May 19, 2001 and the final for Phase A was passed on July 27, 2001. He stated the site had been rezoned from RR to R-1 due to such a great amount of soil being very good for septic. He stated most of the lots were 30,000 square feet when you look at the whole subdivision. He stated Phase A is approximately 75% completed with no known problems either with septic or drainage. He stated this Phase B is just about a mirror image of Phase A. He stated the reason we are here for primary plat is that the plat expired and didn’t get renewed within the three years. He stated so we started over addressing changes in the septic requirements and the open space requirements. He stated Phase B consists of 24 lots on 37.38 acres. He stated that is one lot less than the original plat contains. He stated you will notice that some of the lots are more than 30,000 square feet. He stated this is due to the change in the soil and also some of the changes in the Health Department policy. He stated this plat has been approved by TAC and the Health Department. He stated there are two ponds to provide storm water management. He stated the outlet for these ponds is a ditch that flows to the Sandy Hook Ditch. He stated lot 30 is a large lot and will provide access to the open space area, which is Outlot A. He stated there is no lot 29. He stated we lost that lot due to the soil conditions so that is going to be a large lot and will contain the easement to get to the open space. He stated the plat does meet the Plan Commission Ordinance in all aspects. He stated Mr. Appel and Mr. McQuestion and I will be happy to answer any questions.

No one spoke in favor of this petition.

No one spoke in opposition to this petition.

The Public Hearing was then closed.

Commissioner Harper stated I haven’t any questions.

Mrs. Marshall stated I haven’t any questions.



Mr. Read asked who owns the land to the west or the adjacent properties here.

Mr. Bengel stated Mr. Good owns that. He stated I think he plans on selling that to the adjacent farmer. He stated you can’t build on it. He stated it will just be farm ground.

Mr. Read stated then we have some space west of your Phase I.

Mr. Bengel stated that is Parcel B. He stated basically if Mr. Good holds onto it it will be open space but I think he plans on selling those for farming.

Mr. Read stated what happens is that we have a high point over here and we have a low area going towards the back and some low area going toward the front. He stated we are talking about an ordinance a surface runoff ordinance where runoff from a site if it doesn’t go directly to a regulated ditch or water way of some kind the owner of that property has to provide a statement saying that he grants an easement for this water to go across his property.

Mr. Bengel asked is this proposed.

Mr. Read stated no this has been passed.

Mr. Thompson stated your application was in prior to that.

Mr. Read stated somebody is going to complain no matter what. He asked what percentage is your open space.

Mr. Bengel stated we have 38 acres so that is going to be about 15%.

Mr. Read stated so you are including your detention pond in your open space.

Mr. Bengel stated yes but we are still over the amount even if I take the pond out.

Mr. Read asked will the owners of these lots have access to the open space.

Mr. Bengel stated yes. He stated right now we show it on the south side coming off the cul-de-sac. He stated the fifty feet would be on the south side.

Mr. Read stated dump right into the detention pond.


Mr. Bengel stated it goes north and around the detention area. He stated there will be 50-feet of unobstructed access.

Mr. Read stated so the double dashed line identified as 30-feet is a walking space.

Mr. Bengel stated it is 50-feet. He stated there is a 30-foot drainage easement for the pond and then from the north of that we will go up 50-feet. He stated from the south side of that drainage easement we will go up 50-feet and then we have a 50-foot strip east of the pond all the way to the north line that is an easement that will access the open space.

Mr. Read stated there is also a line of evergreen trees along the north. He asked is that on your property or on the next property.

Mr. Bengel stated it is on this parcel.

Mr. Read stated then there is a line of trees running north and south over here near Outlot A. He asked where are those trees on this. He stated my point being is that this is a natural feature that is under our open space ordinance and can’t be touched. He stated it seems to me that you are putting your detention pond where the trees are.

Mr. Bengel stated I have to ask Mr. Good because he dug the pond.

Mr. Good stated the trees are east of the detention pond that we are going to dig.

Mr. Read stated are you saying that the line of trees is on lot 29 and lot 28.

Mr. Bengel stated lot 28 and lot 30.

Mr. Read stated you can’t build there then according to our open space. He stated once it is identified as a natural feature and groves of trees are identified as a natural feature. He stated you have to preserve 100% of those natural features up to a maximum of 40% of the entire area. He stated there is no chance of you exceeding the 40%. He stated it seems to me that this is a natural area that you should show on this map and adjust your lots accordingly. He stated it might not be so bad if this line of trees are on Lot 29 and you are not supposed to build there anyway according to the notation that I have. He stated it goes off onto 30. He stated that is soil type SB which affects 28, half of 27, half of 30, half of 29 and to nothing of


Phase I, 16, 17, 18 and 19.

Mr. Bengel stated the soil borings and those lines that are shown on the plat are based upon the Porter County Atlas that Chuck Walker’s office used.

Mr. Read stated if you are saying that it is not necessarily true I want to know what it is. He stated the only thing I have to go on is this map.

Mr. Bengel stated we are required to put that atlas information on the plat whether it is correct or not. He stated we have the soil borings to over ride the atlas and that is how the lots were designed.

Mr. Read asked where are the soil borings.

Mr. Bengel stated the soil borings are numbered. He stated if you look on Lot 30 just to the right of 30 there are some numbers, 58, 59 and 60. He stated if you go to the right…

Mr. Read stated what about 28. He stated you got 64, 65 and 66. He asked what kind of soil do you have on those.

Mr. Bengel stated it is suitable soil for septic.

John McQuestion stated I am from Soil Solutions. He stated it is the transition between Sebewa and Tracy.

Mr. Read stated according to the map it is SB. He stated do you want to know what it says about septic tanks.

Mr. McQuestion stated sure.

Mr. Read stated it says, “Limitations are severe for septic tank absorption fields because of ponding and poor filtering qualities of the soil. Seepage of effluent into ground water supplies can cause pollution.” He stated they are going to have a well on this site.

Mr. McQuestion stated sure.

Mr. Read stated I think you have to knock some of these out.

Mr. McQuestion stated the County and State requirements are what we follow. He stated Sebewa listed hydric soils Sebewa on a greater 1% slope is suitable for Porter County’s regulations. He stated now Sebewa on a less than 1% slope they don’t consider


suitable. He stated we also have to provide for adequate drainage outlets meaning what they do is the similar way you put in a drain tile around the foundation of your house to keep your basement dry. He stated they run artificial drainage around the perimeter of the septic field and that runs to an outlet. He stated it could be a detention pond or some of these lateral ditches that are out there. He stated that is fairly well standard practice.

Mr. Read asked do you know where the water table is at the worst time of year.

Mr. McQuestion stated 10 to 12 inches below the surface. He stated that is why we drain it. He stated we are not dumping water into a 12-inch water table. He stated we are providing adequate drainage. He stated I think that when you go through soil survey and you pull information on a soil survey like the rating is slight, severe or moderate, soils for a survey grading indicates that you need to provide additional onsite information and engineering to accommodate the limitations of the soil.

Mr. Read asked what are you going to do in this case.

Mr. McQuestion stated we are going to provide additional subsurface drainage. He stated the same way that we did in Phase A, which is all per County and State regulations and approvals.

Mr. Read stated so on some of these lots you would have to provide additional drainage.

Mr. McQuestion stated some of the lots would require perimeter drains.

Mr. Read asked what drains it. He asked is it going to be pumped.

Mr. McQuestion stated it is gravity flow.

Mr. Read stated if your water is up ten inches down only ten inches where is your drain pipe.

Mr. McQuestion stated standard field would be 24-inches below trench bottom and a sandy soil would be 20 feet out around the perimeter. He stated on Sebewa it has to be three feet below trench bottom so it is more restrictive perimeter that we have to meet. He stated that is why some of these lots where taken out because they couldn’t meet the change in the rule that happened around 2001 or 2002 that the State and the County decided how they were going to address some of these poorly drained soils.


Mr. Read stated regardless of the septic situation we have had some questions that we want to ask the County Health Board on this matter. He stated I want a clear explanation how the County Health Board would handle with drawings and details on how they keep approving virtually everything that in the way of septic tanks.

Mr. McQuestion stated I assure you that is not the case.

Mr. Read stated I have not had a satisfactory answer from them. He stated so I am looking forward to getting one, hopefully. He stated aside from the septic situation there is this tree situation. He stated I think this should go back and have these trees, which is a natural feature on this land. He stated I pinpointed on this map so that we know whether or not the owner of that particular lot can cut it down if the trees run right down the middle of his lot and he wants to cut them down and build his house. He stated there is nothing to stop him at this point.

Mr. Breitzke stated Herb can I ask you a question. He asked are you talking about the fence line trees.

Mr. Read stated I am talking about some evergreen trees that are in the line. He stated in there are two of them running east and west and north and south. He stated they just told me that they are on their property but it doesn’t show on their map. He stated I want to see where these trees are.

Mr. Bengel stated there is some trees on his row but there was a row of trees running north and south through the property. He stated we will stipulate that we won’t disturb them and we will put them in the open space easement.

Mr. Read stated you are saying that you will revise this plan to adjust the lot lines to avoid the trees and put the trees wherever they are into open space.

Mr. Bengel stated we have plenty of room to do that.

Mr. Appel stated the trees that you mentioned are on the western edge of lot 31 and 28. He stated the north half of those trees are already included in the green space access easement.

Mr. Read stated if it is included that is fine. He stated that is less changes that you have to make.

Mr. Bengel stated we will stipulate that and we will show them and protect them.


Mr. Cole stated my problem is with the smaller lots. He stated 30,000 square feet for lots 32 and 33. He stated less than an acre on some of these.

Mr. Thompson stated in an R-1 zoning the septic fields are allowed and if the Health Department gives approval for it they can go to a 30,000 square foot lot.

Mr. Cole stated so if the opportunity exists we will take advantage of it. He asked are there sidewalks.

Mr. Bengel stated no. He stated this is designed according to the law and we didn’t skip anywhere.

Mr. Appel stated one factor that as somebody from the north county I think I was unaware of in the south county and I became aware of it is I am from Jackson Township and we are used to dealing with the septic fields where we have to go 1500 to 2000 square feet to even get a usable system. He stated the soils are such that the system that have been installed in Phase A already have been approved by the Health Department and working without failing are only 600 to 900 square feet because of the soil.

Mr. Cole stated I am really not that convinced that these soils are that great in this area. He stated my concern is how small these lots are and that there are not sidewalks. He stated I think good development really should think heavily seriously and consider and include sidewalks in all subdivisions. He stated it makes for better neighbors.

Mr. Burns stated I have no questions.

Mr. Detert stated I have no questions.

Commissioner Harper moved to approve Case 06-P-1 contingent upon the Plan Commission being provided a document within two weeks that shows the existing two stands of trees that are on this particular parcel that we are dealing with tonight providing that they will be in compliance with our green space ordinance and will be protected. Mr. Burns seconded the motion.

Discussion:

Mr. Breitzke stated what I would suggest is that you have final plat coming but have another submission of the preliminary plat with the final plat showing those areas showing the trees. He stated we need the easement shown on the final plat. He stated the preliminary plat should show the detail.



Motion carried on the following ballot vote:

Burns - Yes Cole - Yes Detert - Yes
Harper - Yes Marshall - Yes Read - Yes
Breitzke - Yes

Mr. Thompson stated we had a meeting advertised already with our calendar and the newspapers everything that we approved for November 8. He stated the Commissioners were to meet on November 7 but since that is election day they moved it to November 8. He stated there is a conflict. He stated we could reschedule or we could try to hold a light agenda and maybe have the meeting after the Commissioner meeting.

Mr. Breitzke stated my suggestion was to start our meeting at 7:00 p.m.

Commissioner Harper stated I will talk to Melissa and we will keep it a real light agenda.

Mr. Thompson stated staff has passed out the Annual Report and go ahead and review it.

Mr. Thompson stated Ken Elwood has supplied us with the attorneys contract. He stated please review it.

There being no further business the meeting adjourned at 9:45 p.m.

PORTER COUNTY
PLAN COMMISSION


s/ Kevin D. Breitzke, President

Attest: Robert W. Thompson Jr. AICP, Executive Director/County Planner