PORTER COUNTY PLAN COMMISSION

Regular Meeting
November 9, 2005

M I N U T E S

The regular meeting of the Porter County Plan Commission was held on Wednesday November 9, 2005 at 6:30 p.m. in the Porter County Administrative Center, 155 Indiana Avenue, Suite 205, Valparaiso, Indiana.

Those members present were Rick Burns, Tim Cole, Robert Detert, Commissioner Bob Harper, Elizabeth Marshall, Herb Read, Dan Whitten and Kevin Breitzke, President. Staff members present were Robert W. Thompson Jr., Patricia S. Gibson and Attorney Karen Tallian.

Commissioner Harper moved to waive the reading of the September 28, 2005 meeting and approve them as received in the mail. Mr. Burns seconded the motion, which carried on a unanimous voice vote.

Old Business:

Findings of Fact: Case 05-P-19. Petitioner Walnut Ridge, LLC.

Mr. Detert moved to accept the Findings of Fact for Case 05-P-19. Mr. Burns seconded the motion, which carried on a unanimous voice vote.

Findings of Fact: Case 05-P-20. Petitioner Michael & Charlene Swift.

Mr. Detert moved to accept the Findings of Fact for Case 05-P-20. Mr. Burns seconded the motion, which carried on a unanimous voice vote.

Case 05-P-13. Petition of Floramo Partners, 1804 Garnet Court, New Lenox, Illinois seeking primary plat approval for Falling Waters Subdivision to be located on the North side of CR 100 S., approximately 1.4 mile East of Lake/Porter County Line Road in Porter Township. (To contain 10 lots on 8.09 acres. Property is zoned R-1. Con’t from 10-26-05 mtg. Public hearing is closed.)


Mr. Breitzke asked is there anybody here from Falling Waters.



Mr. Whitten moved to continue Case 05-P-13 until the December 14, 2005 meeting. Mr. Read seconded the motion, which carried on a unanimous voice vote.

New Business:

At this time, Mr. Breitzke read the rules of conduct for a public hearing.

Case 05-P-21. Petition of Redfish Development, P.O. Box 2412, Chesterton, Indiana seeking primary plat approval for the Preserve Subdivision to be located at the Southeast corner of CR 50 W. and CR 1050 N., in Liberty Township. (To contain 99 lots on 89 acres. Property is zoned R-1.)

Greg Babcock stated I am here on behalf of the Preserve. He stated Redfish Development consists of Mark Radzik and Paul Shinn both from Chesterton. He stated also with me this evening are Andy Mix and Rick Trevino of SEH who are an engineering consulting firm. He stated I would like to put in the record this evening these documents that have been given to the Plan Commission members as part of their packet. He stated our project this evening is named the Preserve and hopefully when we get through with our presentation you will kind of appreciate the particular choice of ways to describe it. He stated this is a 90 acre parcel located in Liberty Township, which is currently zoned R-1. He stated for those familiar with it it is located on CR 50 W. and CR 1050 N. about ¼ mile west of Chesterton High School just off Meridian Road. He stated the proposal this evening would be to propose 99 single family homes on this site. He stated the average lot size is approximately 9100 square feet. He stated the goal of the developers to this particular site is to actually preserve. He stated we are approaching this maybe a little bit differently than the ones that I have done in the past where I have just farm fields. He stated we are going to have about 51 acres currently of wetlands, which is about 57% of the site, ten acres roughly of open space and 29 acres developable. He stated we have contained in your packet a letter that talks about the wetland boundary’s and the fact that they have been verified and looked at by the Army Corp of Engineers. He stated one other note for your record is about .8 of an acre of land is necessary to complete the roadway there and we would be mitigating that. He stated we assume that this would be about a 3:1 ratio. He stated so that would be about a little over 2 acres and we believe the loss will become new wetland area. He stated we do have that space available as we started out about ten acres of open space there. He stated a couple of things to look at in the site is our road entrance is coming off of CR 50 W. but if you note the configuration there are five lots that we are proposing to sit on CR 1050 N., which is in the northwest corner there. He stated the roads themselves after we have been through TAC are going to be built to or greater than the County standards. He stated they are going to be public roads. He stated I apologize that we don’t have any names on those. He stated in your packet we note “A” “B” “C” “D” right now. He stated we realize that we have to have names approved for those if we are approved here. He stated in the development itself we do have an area near lots 41 and 55 if you look at the site and we do have the ability to have connectivity. He stated by that I mean we have spaces set aside in two locations on the east side to allow development. He stated there is land east of us in two locations that may some day be developed. He stated TAC suggested this and we went ahead and did that. He stated the road agreement that has been proposed is contained in the documents that we turned in. He stated those lots would pay about $750 at the time of a driveway permit. He stated that would generate a little bit short of $75,000 for any road improvements. He stated in addition with the discussion with the engineer we are setting aside an additional $200 a lot anticipating that there may be development immediately to our west that might require some form of passing blister on the west side of CR 50 W. He stated should the engineer choose to have those monies paid up front that is fine or if it is to be held until such time that development comes along. He stated one other item to look at on your drawing we are going to call the old driveway on that site…if you are familiar with it there used to be a home and an old barn way deep into the interior of that site and it has a driveway. He stated we are proposing to salvage that driveway for two purposes one for emergency access and the second would be there is some land available that not is currently wetland and is open space that coming in off of that driveway might serve itself as an input location. He stated some type of a hiking or biking situation where you can come to the site through the area and leave the area. He stated we are proposing at this point some type of a field component situation that would allow for a lock box with a key system so that all of our emergency access people would have access to it and utilize it before it goes down you drive in if you ever have to use that access point and this is not for traffic. He stated I know that we have had informal discussions with the Liberty Township Fire Department to alert them to the fact that we are coming this evening for this proposed development. He stated if there is anything that we need to get to them we will be happy to. He stated they are aware of the fact that the development has been proposed at this particular location. He stated one other area that comes into play for both fire perspective as well as the use of the lots is that we are going to be serviced by water from Indiana American Water. He stated that information is also included in the packet that we have given to you. Mr. Babcock stated one thing and again you are all veterans of this so you know you start and turn in a project you work with TAC things still come up. He stated if you look in the lower quadrant of your map this area here we have identified a pipeline, a light petroleum product pipeline. He stated we located it physically. He stated it doesn’t sit 100% where it supposed to sit but we have been in contact with the pipeline people and they are aware of it. He stated we proposed originally that this road would have the pipeline go under it. He stated Dave Schelling gave us a call and said that he would be more comfortable if that pipeline sat north of the road. He stated so in some point in time we are looking to pull that road down a little bit here and we can figure our lots in here so that the pipeline runs this way and is in the ground and not under the road. He stated we thought it would be safer that way. He stated Dave thinks it is a better approach so we know that we have to make that particular change. He stated I wanted to bring it to your attention this evening that again as we work through these projects we try to do what TAC thinks is in everybody’s best interest. He stated one of the big issues on this site of course because it is unique and it is kind of upside down and we have much more wetland than we do regular ground is the drainage. He stated what I would like to do this evening is have Andy Mix give you a little bit of a presentation on the lap top computer. He stated they have taken the design criteria that the County imposes and we have turned it in and it has been agreed upon but we have it here in a situation where we want to be able to show you that based on the storm limits that we are supposed to have here our site handles its water and a little bit of somebody else’s water on site and there is no discharge from our perspective.

Andy Mix stated what I propose to show you tonight is simply a visual tool. He stated it is based on the design calculations that we have submitted to TAC they are based on the County requirements. He stated your professional staff have reviewed those design calculations. He stated this animation that I am going to show you is simply a visual tool and it makes it easier for everyone to understand what is going on. He stated the math and the engineering behind it exists and it has been turned into TAC. He stated what you are seeing now is basically the site as it looks today. He stated I live about a mile from this site and I realize that we are in a drought year. He stated that is what the water looks like on the site today. He stated I better clarify that. He stated it is not today. He stated this is based on a survey that was done in August of 2005. He stated realizing that we couldn’t use that as a base so if you look at this, this goes back to a more normal water level and as it pans around and to get everybody oriented, you have the Indiana Toll Road on the south side there and on the west is CR 50 W. and CR 1050 N. is up on the top. He stated as you can see there is not a lot of topography this site. He stated it is very flat. He stated the model animation does take into account the topography as well as the water levels as well as the design calculations. He stated what happens next we dropped in the proposed roads and the lot lines and the proposed homes. He stated the water levels are still at that existing “normal level.” He stated the design calculations ask us to look at a 100 year storm. He stated if we make this rain you can see that the water levels do come up. He stated as Greg has alluded to we have taken advantage of the low areas as well as the high areas and use them appropriately. He stated we are working with the land and using the wetlands basically to retain our water and do what they do naturally. He stated that represents what the design calculations anticipate for the water levels on a 100 year storm. He stated the water level to the lower right is actually taking a light bit of water off the property to the east. He stated note that under this condition all of the roads are still dry and all of the homes are still dry. He stated there is no impact on either of the county roads up here. He stated we have proposed this as a zero discharge site.

Mr. Babcock stated we will also in a few minutes get into what is called best management practices. He stated some of the items that we will take into account would include swales and some filter strips that we are going to require. He stated besides having the drainage issue that comes to us our choice for sanitary sewer is going to be using the sanitary sewer from the Town of Chesterton. He stated we have been in contact with them and there is a letter in your packet from them. He stated as always they would like to know what number of lots have been approved and in what configuration so that they can go ahead and work with us to develop the full engineering on that particular situation. He stated one of the interesting things that came about in this design is while we were with the Town of Chesterton and its employees from the sanitary sewer department we of course talked about lift stations. He stated Chesterton is not as excited as it used to be about owning and maintaining lift stations. He stated there is a cost involved. He stated they made a suggestion to look at the e-one system, which is my understanding that has been used in Porter County currently. He stated the design of this system is sanitary sewer, which again allows us to have the lot configuration that we are looking for in this particular situation here. He stated in your packets you have a brochure from e-one to give you an overview of how the system works and lays itself out. He stated Andy the engineer would like to give you just a couple of minutes on its function. He stated again it is not the standard that you normally see out here.

Mr. Mix stated the e-one system is a low pressure force main system for sanitary sewage only. He stated it operates on a positive displacement gravity pump. He stated it has the ability to grind up solids to less than an 1/8 of an inch and then it is pumped at a low pressure out through a forced main system. He stated each house pumping out to a main along the streets and then those streets joining up and then it would go down CR 1050 N. and be deposited at the existing lift station just south of Chesterton High School. He stated some of the advantages of this it is less invasive to the development to the land. He stated we use a smaller diameter pipe that means shallower buried and it is a gravity system. He stated we don’t need a 12-inch pipe we can get away with a 3 to 4-inch pipe. He stated the system is designed with check valves and isolation valves to insure that each home owner is independent and is not receiving sewage from one of their neighbors. He stated it has alarms built in so if there is a power failure or a pump failure the home owner gets an alarm and they do have a responsibility to go down there and figure out what is going on. He stated there is a design capacity built in to the system where each individual home owner say in the event of a prolonged power outage or something has capacity where they are not going to be without the ability to flush their toilets. He stated they are going to have a 91 gallon capacity to get them through until the situation gets back to normal. He stated again this is very much less invasive to the entire site.

Mr. Babcock stated now we have talked a little bit about drainage, roadways and sewers. He stated I think the one area that has to come across is that if you are interested in being on the site of the Preserve you’ve got some things that you’ve got to take to heart should you want to be there. He stated by that I mean for example we have best management practices. He stated we are going to have filter strips installed wherever our lots butt up to wetland areas. He stated the areas where we would normally have our road runoff if you notice instead of curb and gutter system we are looking at a form of ribbon curb and then we have vegetative swales instead of just a ditch from that perspective to clean and help slow the rate of water into the wetland area there. He stated you have to understand that this is going to be an education process from the home owner’s perspective and that is going to be the responsibility of the developers. He stated I would like for just a second for Paul Shinn who is a home builder and a developer here to give you just a very brief overview of what is going to be expected of the home owners in this particular development.

Paul Shinn stated some of the environmentally friendly BMP’s that we are going to be using on our project initial and


ongoing home owner education. He stated it is very critical to our project. He stated we are going to make sure that our customers go to new buyer orientation and that they understand what they are getting themselves into. He stated minimizing impervious surface like Greg said and eliminating sidewalks and curb and gutters and storm drains. He stated the vegetated storm water spreaders for a lack of a better word they are the swales on each side of the street. He stated natural landscapes you will see on one of the plans that we have some landscape plans that we are going to encourage our customers to use natural invasive landscape plantings. He stated we will also encourage rain barrels. He stated the use of rain barrels on a site would be very helpful and also rain gardens. He stated some of those environmentally friendly best management practices will be included and some customers are going to have to opt to do some more. He stated the main focus is that we intend on preserving 55 acres of wetlands. He stated this will be accomplished by professionals and through the Home Owners Association we will have funds available to maintain and professionally manage the site. He stated so people will be working with professionals not just Home Owner Association people. He stated as far as the construction end we envision the homes on this site to be a medium size with high amenities on the inside and using many environmentally best management practices around the exterior of the home. He stated the street parcel would have activities that would be monitored by the developer. He stated the first one is making sure that the builder chooses the right tradesman and the workers are educated about what is happening. He stated this is very critical for the success of the project. He stated the next is selecting a house plan that works with the land and also a landscape plan that works with the land. He stated these two things and many more items will be reviewed and approved by the architectural review board which is the developer. He stated whether we build all of the homes or sell off some of the lots we are going to require a cash performance deposit made out to the developer. He stated these deposits are going to ensure the installation and the maintenance of the erosion control measures, property waste as far as garbage removal and the filter strips that pre-treat the storm water and not only that but timely completion to make sure that these homes get completed in a timely manner. He stated should one of these activities either be neglected or not maintained properly the funds collected through the cash bond will be used to correct the problem. He stated only when the home site is complete will these monies be returned. He stated truly the Preserve is truly a lifestyle choice. He stated people are going to want to live here. He stated they are going to have to understand what is going on. He stated therefore our role as a developer will be more interactive and more important an educational resources for the builders and the buyers.

Mr. Babcock stated the last area that I am going to combine we have open space, we have wetland and we have the ability to manage, well maybe not the inability of the home owners to manage is a better way to put this. He stated what we have done before we got here is we have been in conversation with the Park Department and we have been in conversation with some 501C3 Groups that are professionals in the ability to manage these particular sites. He stated we understand that the Home Owners Association is going to be our funding mechanism to be able to create dollars so that these people can manage the sites. He stated right now what we are contemplating is maybe some form of cooperative effort between the Park and the professional group that we choose. He stated there are some areas if you look at your site map especially down in this area over here where Liberty Trail comes in we have open space and that is surrounded by wetland. He stated if you look at your site even though there is a viaduct here for the Toll Road there is space coming down in here that is open space and not wetland until you get to the wetland area. He stated what we think might work well is some kind of interactive situation where the Park has the ability to come in to those sites and improve them in some passive manner again and yet still have the professionals there to manage that entire wetland area. He stated that is what we are looking at right now for the management perspective there. He stated I think that we tried to hit all of the high points that we know that are going to be of a concern for you as Board members this evening. He stated of course everyone is here to answer questions. He stated I ask you to consider this evening looking favorably upon our project for primary plat.

Mr. Breitzke stated we have the petitioners signed in in favor of this petition. He stated they are Greg Babcock, 111 S. Calumet, Andy Mix, 109 Laurer Creek, Paul Shinn, 1093 Lombardy, Mark Radzik, 1064 Laurer Creek.

Mike Shook stated I live at 1014 N. 50 W. He stated I sent in a letter to the Board that I would like to have entered into the minutes. At this time, Mr. Shook read his letter opposing the petition. The letter is in the primary plat file.

James Marx stated I live at 1064 N. 50 W. He stated when he showed the 100 year rain up there the pond or whatever you have on the northwest corner of your development didn’t grow where the five lots are going to be in proportion to all the rest of the lots there. He stated I have concern about the five lots there on CR 1050 N. He stated I don’t see how you are going to put in the first place when it rains the water gets hung up going under CR 1050 N. and it goes over the road to get to the Swanson- Lamporte Ditch. He stated I think Kevin and I talked about that on the assessments that are coming down. He stated that is a very big concern the five lots with the water and everything else. He stated you said the sewer and the water is going to come down CR 1050 N. from the High School. He asked it is not coming down CR 50 W. He asked is there going to be a POA and if there is will they be responsible for the roads after the thing has been built so that the county taxpayers don’t have to pay for rebuilding roads in the wetlands. He stated someone talked about the e-one sewer discharge that the owners need to take responsibility if they buy the property. He asked what if they decide not to take responsibility. He stated so many people in this day and age say that they are going to take responsibility but then they don’t. He stated the alarm goes off and they decide “oh well” or they are on vacation. He stated what if they are senior citizens that are snow birds that go south.

Jim Zimmer stated I live at 935 N. 550 E. He stated the only question that I have would be as long as the engineering status of it is correct and true I don’t feel the density is a bad thing at all.

J.F. Schrader stated I live at 978 Meridian Rd. He stated I have some drawings that I would like to give to the members. He stated I have many, many questions about this. He stated I have viewed a copy of your drawings and the first thing I see is that you intend to put some basements in this development. He stated when sewers were first started about 80 years ago they were nine feet deep in the ground. He stated let’s say the waste water treatment plants because of the additional water most of your developers are building in high water table land. He stated that is why your sewer waste treatment plants do not want to take this water so they no longer have the drainage in the basements. He stated they replace those with sump pumps. He stated the sewers are only three feet deep. He stated that allows that water that is not very pure to be pumped out onto the ground. He stated we will call that bilge water. He stated the Town of Chesterton now has problems with the MS4 Program because that water is being dumped into the streets and going untreated into the creek. He stated that is one problem I think should be addressed if you are going to have basements. He stated now the drawing that I gave you the first one is a copy of the US Wetland map. He stated that map does not agree with the map that I see in your drawing. He stated I wonder if you have a wetland map that has been delineated by the Army Corps or is this a map that you drew yourself. He stated this map is fairly accurate. He stated they tell me that it is 95% accurate. He stated they call it the US Wetlands Interior map. He stated then we go to the next drawing which is the soil map and that does not agree with the soil markings on your drawing. He stated there seems to be some difference in there. He stated you only have really three soils. He stated one is shown on a piece of land that is on the south side of the Toll Road that is about 20 foot wide. He stated you have a Del Rey that is not suitable for building and no basements. He stated you have Houghton muck a pure potential for building. He stated you have Milford, MP, severe limitations for building. He stated then your water shed on the water shed map you indicate the north half of the property and the county indicates the north half of the property should drain from the Swanson-Lamporte Ditch. He stated the south should drain from the Pope-O’Conner Ditch. He stated on your drawing you are showing that all the storm water draining into the Pope-O’Conner Ditch. He stated you sewage system where every home must have a pump. He stated we have that in Fox Chase Farms and it has been in there for about ten years. He stated the pumps are all going bad. He stated I talked to IDEM here about two or three weeks ago and at that time he said that he has been out with the Porter County Board of Health three times in a week trying to correct problems with the pumps. He stated if you are going to have pumps you are going to have trouble with each individual pumps. He stated the filter strips that they are talking about. He stated I talk to the State about those strips and they said the only thing that they will filter out is a few solids. He stated otherwise there will be no contaminants filtered out. He stated the first map that you are looking at is a wetland inventory map. He stated they say that this is very, very accurate. He stated I also gave you a copy of the soil map and what the potential is for them.

Alan Hewitt stated I live at 62 E. 950 N. He stated basically why I am here is to talk about the suitability of the soils on the site. He stated the primary soil type is Del Rey. He stated on page 168 it shows the water table of Del Rey soils. He stated it shows at approximately 1 to 3 feet. He stated it is an apparent water table, which basically means that the water will go all the way from the normal water table up to within that far of the surface. He stated you dig a hole and you keep digging and if the normal water table is 20-feet and the water table is one foot, which it can’t be on this property you are going to keep getting water all the way down. He stated also on that page it shows the potential for frost action. He stated it does have a high potential for frost action. He stated this will impact foundation, roads and that sort of thing. He stated on page 164 it talks about the permeability of the soil. He stated if you look from 8-inches down to 60-inches down the permeability is only .06 to .2 inches an hour. He stated when the water gets on this property it basically doesn’t go anywhere. He stated it sits. He stated the ground does not percolate. He stated the water will sit there. He stated the only way that I can see that you can get rid of any storm water off this property; you are not going to get rid of it through percolation. He stated the ground will not perk. He stated you are going to have to have some type of surface drainage open ditches, stand pipes. He stated on page 154 it talks about percolation, frost action and that sort of thing. He stated on page 150 it talks about road fill, which it is poor because of low strength. He stated when the ground gets moist it is really not stable or not solid. He stated I can tell you from personal experience I have farmed property about a ¼ of a mile away from here. He stated it also has Del Rey soil on it. He stated you will have most likely on that site many springs. He stated the springs on the property I farm, Mr. Shook’s, are not all in the low areas. He stated there are springs in the high areas. He stated when I first started farming that property there is probably about 405 of it in the driest year I couldn’t get in there to farm. He stated Mr. Shook spent the money and put a tile in with standpipes and we could finally get in. He stated also in the literature that I gave you on page 140 it talks about limitations. He stated on page 66 it talks about site development and it lists the soil as having severe limitations. He stated the water is going to have to be taken off site somehow. He stated it is the responsibility of the Board to take the interest of the people of Porter County. He stated I am afraid that if this gets approved and the roads are damaged it will be the cost of the tax payers in the county to fix the roads.

Jeff McLendon stated I live at 18 W. 1050 N. He stated I own the property immediately to the east side of this subdivision. He stated I have a problem with the flooding in there too. He stated contrary to what their map shows and with the existing standing water and the water that he shows in the northeast corner appears to end on his property. He stated it doesn’t end on his property. He stated part of that is in my property. He stated this is the first year and I have been living there since 1996 that I have not had standing water on my property and in my yard. He stated it is wet year around there. He stated when I dig for a fence post I hit water and they are talking about putting in basements. He asked is there going to be some kind of retention area on the property that could take away the water as to create a bigger problem that I already have on my property.

Michael Hogan stated I live at 1062 Laurel Creek Dr. He stated I have actually nothing to contribute as far as the drainage. He stated I do have a particular interest in this subdivision as well as others that go in our community. He stated


I own a small business and I have a consulting firm. He stated the talent that we bring in is really an intellectual based talent and this is the kind of thing where…I am competing with other company’s from Chicago and things like that where we are looking for ways for how do we get the talent into our community. He stated how do we get the brains over here. He stated this actually gives me something more to offer them as far as the quality of life. He stated these kinds of developments are very important to us and our community as far as being able to get people that…we are looking for a specific skill set something that maybe we can’t find in this area.

Paul Huseman stated I live at 1055 N. 50 W. He stated I don’t have anything new to add but I am in agreement with Mr. Marx and Mr. Shook and Mr. Roberts on the points that they made. He stated I have been there for 23 years and I have seen that water drain over CR 1050 into Lamporte Ditch. He stated I am in agreement with the soils that they keep bringing up.

Christine Livingston stated I live at 140 Louisa Lane. She stated I have a letter and I would like to read it. At this time, Ms. Livingston read the letter, which is in the primary plat file.

Tom Shoemate stated I live at 64 E. 1100 N. He stated I maintain that the Pope-O’Connor Ditch about six years ago about 480 feet of that all the way up to CR 1100. He stated I have seen the cresting of its banks. He stated NIPSCO is on the west side of me the substation. He stated Pope-O’Connor Ditch and this last year has been the slowest I that I have ever seen. He stated I would say that putting more subdivisions and 99 of them would seem like quite a bit to split between two ditches that are already overflowing. He stated also building my home I was required to get soil samples. He stated I would have loved to have had a basement too. He stated I see now that everybody is putting basements in muck. He stated just one little tiny corner of my property is wetland and I wasn’t allowed to have a basement. He stated you could put caissons, thirteen foot caissons in the ground but you don’t get a basement. He stated I think you need to get boring samples on every lot.

Mr. Mix stated with respect to the soils our soils we have submitted on the plans are taken from the Porter County Soil Survey and they show the Del Rey, the Houghton, the Milford and the Haskins. He stated we realize that there is a concern about basements. He stated one of the submittals that we made to TAC was a list of every lot. He stated included in that list was a preliminary determination on whether a basement was even possible on those lots. He stated I believe that roughly half on the


determination was made that no basements are going to be allowable. He stated on the other half it was a question and we will look at that when the time comes. He stated the soils were mentioned to be unsuitable as fill material. He stated we don’t plan on using it as fill material. He stated we will bring in engineered fill for the roads to properly support them from sub-base all the way up to surface.

Mr. Radzik stated the permeability rate is low and that is why water accumulates there because it doesn’t evaporate. He stated the main idea behind storm water detention is that if you have a large area you only need a height or short depth of water volume available. He stated likewise if you have a smaller area you’ll need deeper ponds. He stated the symatral terrain here allows for a larger area to be used to detain 100 year storm and all the proposed runoff from the developed site. He stated we are taking advantage of the 55 acres of wetlands in that area. He stated 56 acres is a lot of area and so therefore the water accumulation should only be about less than one foot for the entire site. He stated there is no need for water to be run off onto any other property. He stated while it might be true that about approximately 1/3 of the land, the north part, will drain naturally to the Swanson Ditch. He stated we are not going to take away the culvert at CR 105 but we are merely increasing the amount of culverts and promoting that the water from the north does come down into the south part of our property into the main wetland basin. He stated the wetlands do extend east but again that is the natural contour of the land and we are not changing it. He stated we are not proposing to change any water that goes naturally now east and west along CR 1050. He stated we are merely proposing that at any certain elevation that water will begin to flow south into our main wetland area.

Mr. Babcock stated I can tell you that the wetland report that was done if you look in your material in the very end the letter from the Corps that was done in April 2004. He stated it specifically delineates the wetlands that include both the wet areas and the soils and plant life that are in the particular areas there. He stated we just heard from Ms. Livingston about filter strips and what they would do from a positive perspective. He stated we have not claimed that filter strips make the water disappear. He stated we didn’t say that. He stated the purpose of them is to handle the things such as if you put something on your lawn and it filters through it also slows the rate down and it goes into the wetland area. He stated we are keeping it on our particular site from that situation there. He stated they talked about the ditch. He stated I believe we have been to the Drainage Board and we were not made a regulated drain. He stated we talked a little bit about how do you know if things are going to be done


properly. He stated there are a couple of ways. He stated you have your permitting process through your own county. He stated there are rules that you have to abide by when you come in to get a building permit and the inspections that go with it. He stated the property is zoned R-1 and a question was about completion. He stated we do bond here in Porter County. He stated that is what the bond is for. He stated should you not complete your development they can call the bond to complete the development based on the spec’s that you currently have. He stated there is a protective device there. He stated again when it comes to the storm water situation, please understand that both the professional engineers at SEH as well as the professionals at TAC have reviewed the storm calculations that we have submitted and they do meet the current county criteria for storm water in that particular setting there. He stated another question was asked about whether the home owners will do the right thing or not. He stated we are looking at, again, a professional group 501C3 Corporation. He stated potentially another aspect when you come to inspection or areas where wetlands have been harmed you always have both your State and Federal locations if you have a complaint. He stated so there are protective devices there. He stated there was a comment made about Chesterton. He stated I called to have this information available. He stated in August there was a bypass through a heavy rain in Chesterton. He stated of course one-half of the active capacity in that plant was down for repair at the time. He stated if you look at the submitted long range goals to the IDEM people submitted goals in Chesterton have “zero” bypass. He stated they have gone from 2.7 million gallons per day of availability to 4.6 gallons per day and they have a capacity of ten million gallons per day in a storm setting to handle the sanitary sewer that is coming in to that particular area. He stated they do have the capacity to handle this particular idea but I am not sure that the discharge argument is really a fair one in this particular situation here. He stated comments about the water and sewer I have to ask where…this is Jim’s question…have you determined which area of the water and sewer where they will come from.

Mr. Marx stated the sewer will run east/west on CR 1050 N. He stated the water has not been determined. He stated there are two options and they are almost exactly the same distance. He stated one would be north/south on CR 50 W. from Rose Hill and the other would be east/west on CR 1050 N. from the High School.

Mr. Babcock stated we have a couple of different locations there that would be available. He stated there was a comment made about the responsibility of the e-one system. He stated I would assume that all the people that have septics are also supposed to be responsible for their own septics. He stated


responsibility belongs to each and every home owner that is out there. He stated there are ways to have a back up system for this. He stated there is a capacity of about 90 gallons from holding. He stated there was a comment about if people go on vacation. He stated you would actually not be using your system at that particular point in time should there be a shut down in electricity. He stated there was a comment about springs. He stated I believe that both my clients have walked the property. He asked has anybody found any springs on this particular site that could be identified. He stated none have been found on this particular piece of property. He stated each piece is unique as you well know. He stated basements. He stated there are none of the sites are even proposed for basements and we do have a process with the Building Commissioner in terms of the ability to do that. He stated we do have a device in place for that. He stated concerning the inspection of the ditch. He asked has there been a discussion about along CR 1050 and CR 50 about that tube. He asked is that tube functional.

Rick Trevino stated there are two culverts on each side of CR 50 across from CR 1050. He stated those appear to be functional at the time I was out there. He stated again it was in August and they were both dry.

Mr. Babcock stated I think you guys have talked about Mr. Schrader’s concern on the soils and the watershed. He stated one more thing and that is Fox Chase Farms and our system would not be the same.

Mr. Breitzke stated I would like to make a quick comment. He stated most recently about one month ago we had a public hearing to set assessments on Swanson-Lamporte, which is a regulated drain. He stated it includes the water shed but you are subject to at the north end because of the divide between Pope-O’Connor, which is already assessed and to your south end. He stated so you are in a water shed that is already assessed and we are looking at Swanson-Lamporte to clean it up. He stated the developer wasn’t aware of this. He stated it has been discussed a long time with the Drainage Board but I have discussed this with Paul Shinn of your development.

Mr. Babcock stated if you have a home in that district you would be assessed appropriately.

Mr. Breitzke stated correct.

Mr. Marks stated as Greg just said the homes would be assessed for the Swanson-Lamporte Ditch but that also includes any property here to that hasn’t been built on.


Mr. Breitzke stated yes.

Mr. Marks stated you said that the water from the north end of this project stays along CR 1050. He stated I would also like to know where the culverts are that go under CR 50 W. He stated they didn’t answer any questions on the Home Owners Association taking responsibility for the roads. He stated one thing Greg made the statement that the County gets the extra work to make sure that people are abiding by the e-one rules. He stated also Rick said that 1/3 of the property is going to drain into the Swanson-Lamporte Ditch.

Mr. Shook stated we have one question and that is has a market study been done to show a need and a want for houses of this type in this type of environment. He stated another question I have is what is the elevation from lowest to highest and will that accommodate the one foot water accumulation. He stated it was also mentioned that you would bring in engineer built for the roads. He stated my concern there is will that act as a dam for your water flow where it is supposed to spread out over all of the acreage or will that tend to contain it first in certain areas.

Mr. Schrader stated I still didn’t get an answer to the question is your wetlands map you are showing on your plan was that drawn by the Army Corps or was that drawn by you people. He stated it doesn’t look like an Army Corps drawing to me. He stated your soil delineation does not agree with the soil delineation in the County book. He stated also the drainage. He stated we are getting two answers on the drainage. He stated they are saying that maybe they will drain into Swanson-Lamporte Ditch but their map shows that they all want to drain into Pope-O’Connor.

Mr. Hewitt stated I still have a problem with the permeability. He stated if they put up any kind of structure with any kind of basement, crawl space or anything below the ground. He stated if you put a sump pump in you put the water out into your yard it is going to come right back into your basement.

Mr. McLendon stated I just want to make one more comment about them making a statement that water does flow on the property to the south when based on my experience the water on the north side of the property doesn’t flow anywhere except it stays on that area along CR 1050.

Mr. Babcock stated the roads will be public versus private.

Mr. Trevino stated there are no culverts going under CR 50


W. He stated they are parallel to CR 50 W. and they flow north to south. He stated what I said earlier about 1/3 of the north property I said currently it is in the Swanson drainage area. He stated what is going to happen is that with our roadway and with some open areas that are adjacent to the wetland we can lower it some elevations to promote the water. He stated it is still going to come up to an elevation but we can promote that overflow of that water to flow south and that is what we are going to do. He stated all throughout the roadway system we are going to have cross culverts that will promote the water to flow into our main basin and then at the final release it will actually flow…I guess if you look at our plan view there is the double cul-de-sac at the bottom and just between the two homes there will be a culvert that will promote the flow to flow east to Pope-O’Connor. He stated the elevations of the homes are such that they will be above the roadway surface. He stated any engineering fill that we bring in will be used to bring those homes up higher. He stated typically the delineation are drawn up by the Corps of Engineers and are not based on site visitation. He stated our wetland delineation was done by John McQuestion and it was approved by the U.S. Corps of Engineers. He stated typically the Corps will take those delineation over a map because those maps generally have not had site visitation. He stated we had supplied a map that was directly out of the Porter County Soil Survey and that is exactly what was drawn onto our drawings identifying the soils located on our property. He stated that is all we can say that we used Porter County Soil Survey to identify the soils. He stated the same with the USGS Map. He stated we did not use the USGS Map to identify wetlands. He stated we used the USGS Map to identify general drainage and the contour of the land. He stated not only our land but also the surrounding property.

Mr. Shinn stated even before we made it public that we were going forward with the subdivision we had interest, at least five people, that showed interest and not only that being a builder people keep telling us that they want to have some of project or some property that is in the woods.

Mr. Trevino stated before we get started we are going to need soil borings around the roadway to determine how much material we need to remove in order to get down to sufficient baring capacity for the roadway. He stated we will bring in engineer fill. He stated above the fill will be aggregate and then bituminous surface on top of that. He stated within the engineer fill will be cross culverts at strategic points, low points in the roadway. He stated that will promote again the water to go through the roadway as it were and cross into the main basin that we have for the wetland area. He stated again,


since there is no release that water has to overflow and that overflow culvert will again be as I mentioned before to the east. He stated our drawings show that we have an average of 6% slope of the driveway and the maximum will be 8%, which is based on County recommendations of driveway slopes.

Mr. Breitzke stated I think he was asking for elevations such as what is the highest.

Mr. Trevino stated the highest elevation on the land is generally around 647 done by the south cul-de-sacs. He stated those areas rise up to meet the Toll Road. He stated the low elevation is roughly around 636, which is again…we don’t have an exact water elevation level. He stated at 636 is where the low spots are that we seem to find on the property. He stated at 637 is the elevation to the east along our eastern most property line. He stated on the north side it is around 641, 642, which is why the water stays up there up north.

Mr. Breitzke stated so basically you are talking a range of about 11 feet through the site.

Mr. Trevino stated that is kind of deceptive because the 11 feet really mainly happened right at the Toll Road and the cul-de-sac. He stated the majority of the lots say north of that service drive those lots are around 640, 639 would be about the minimum elevation of those lots. He stated when you go further south they actually rise because the land…

Mr. Breitzke asked what is the water level again.

Mr. Trevino stated 636, 637 is where…it will fluctuate depending on how much rain we get. He stated on the average our roadways are going to be around 640 and on an average our lot elevation is around 641 and 645 for the finished. He stated the high water level is no more than 638.

Mr. Breitzke stated 636 is your water level.

Mr. Trevino stated it fluctuates between 636 and 637 is the normal water level. He stated then the high water level would be no more than 638.

Mr. Marx stated I have two quick questions. He stated one for the development and for the Board. He stated I didn’t hear real well when Rick was talking but he said that all of the water was going to be diverted south so that there will be nothing going towards the Swanson-Lamporte Ditch and if that is true then can we take the culverts out that go under CR 1050 N. because


only one of the culverts is going to Swanson-Lamporte ditch. He stated the second question is for the Board, who decides whether that road is public or it goes to the Home Owners Association so if we have questions we can show up at that board meeting also.

Mr. Schrader stated they talked about septics. He stated is that just going to take the sewer water out or do they have a septic in this system.

Mr. Mix stated it would not be a wise idea to remove those culverts because they actually will help drain the CR 50 and CR 1050. He stated there is a bit of a swale just of those roadways and we did not expect to remove any of those barriers that would actually bring the water back into our property. He stated we are going to promote the water to drain south is true but those culverts are still necessary for the drainage of the county roads. He stated there is no septic system that will be used. He stated the e-one system is a low pressure force main system. He stated what he may be talking about is the sump pump used for drainage of basements. He stated if it is necessary that the house may need a sump pump we will again use different systems to restrict how that drainage is going to be discharged but it will be discharged over land and basically recirculated back into the ground.

Mr. Shinn stated in Chesterton there are areas that have a septic tank and then the effluent from that septic tank is pressure pumped into a force main. He stated that is not the system we are using. He stated this is pure sanitary waste going through the sewer to the lift station and then out.

The public hearing was then closed.

Mr. Whitten stated I have nothing at this time.

Mr. Burns stated I have some concerns. He stated it appears to be a high risk development. He stated I am concerned about the soil conditions, basements, foundations, the roadways. He stated I am concerned about percolation of the water. He stated what happens if there is a heavy rain, a 100 year rain. He stated what happens to the water if it doesn’t percolate. He stated is it going to be stagnant. He stated what type of health problems would that create. He stated concerning the sewer system. He stated why a force main at each residence.

Mr. Trevino stated if you are speaking with Chesterton utility’s it was their desire to avoid a community lift station for operations and maintenance issues. He stated their suggestion of the e-one system and after we looked at it we


agreed with them. He stated basically each one of these homes has its own little lift station and by summing all these little lift stations in series you are having the same affect as the big lift station without the expense.

Mr. Burns stated I understand that. He stated that is a concern because I think it would be a high risk for leakage and overflow and you are talking about 90 gallons for reserve and that is not much.

Mr. Trevino stated each home will have a check valve that will prevent water from flowing into their tank. He stated each one will have a 90 gallon tank.

Mr. Burns asked where will it go.

Mr. Trevino stated let’s say there is a loss of electricity. He stated everything will start to be pumped out and of course it will take time for 99 homes to empty their tank but that system will be put to take those effluents out of their tanks. He stated the check valves will not allow any water to come back into their system.

Mr. Burns stated if you loose power for more than one day or four hours or whatever after you reach the reserve of 90 gallons where does the sewage go.

Mr. Trevino stated if the power goes out generally speaking your water may be affected also. He stated so you are not going to be able to use the system because the effluent only comes in when you flush the toilet and use the water and such. He stated on long loss of electricity the usage actually goes down too because people don’t stay in their homes and they don’t have the water to stay in their homes and they don’t the electricity to stay in their homes and if they do it is a very low flow of what they are discharging.

Mr. Mix stated the home owners are going to have to know that when the electricity goes out they have a limited capacity. He stated they also have to know that each one of these systems is easily adaptable to a generator system, which a lot of people have these days. He stated that is an option that they can make for their home. He stated the same way that a lot of us have backup systems for our sump pumps.

Mr. Burns stated there are a lot of assumptions that the home owner is going to do. He stated also the size of the lots. He stated you mentioned medium size homes. He stated what do you consider a medium size home on these small lots.


Mr. Mix stated we have an idea and envision the homes somewhere about 1800 to 2200 square foot and probably two-story maximizing the space and not taking so much of the land away. He stated there might be some opportunities on some of the larger corner lots to possibly put up a ranch house. He stated what we envision is between 1800 and 2200 square feet.

Mr. Burns stated most of these lots are 60 feet and some are 50 feet wide.

Mr. Mix stated that in many of those cases that is buildable space but lot sizes are actually bigger than that. He stated I believe we average 9,111 square feet per lot. He stated there are some that are 10,000 and some that are 8000. He stated this is kind of the style of one of the houses, which is about 1875 square feet with a two car garage.

Mr. Detert stated I have sat on this Board for a long time and I guess it is the first time that I have heard that we are going to have to educate the people who buy these lots and educate them to the tune of how to live on these lots. He stated everything that I am looking at here says that this property is marginal, not buildable or very difficult to build on. He stated I am not really in favor of this. He stated I don’t know if we are getting so hard up in Porter County that we have to build on this kind of land or whether it is just that the developer buys it cheap or what is happening here. He stated I think that there are too many marginal things. He stated I think that there is a lot depending on pumps. He stated I think that people are going to have water problems in here. He stated we have enough water problems in Porter County now. He stated I just don’t look on this favorably. He stated even some of the data that you have submitted has indicated that the people that you have consulted have shown in their letters that this is difficult property to build on. He stated I don’t know why we have to build on risky property.

Mr. Cole stated I have a number of concerns as well but first let me presage that as far as presentation this is the best I have seen and if it were in my power to do so I would say that this Planning Commission should expect no less from this day forward. He stated I don’t think that will ever happen, however, it was a great presentation and it went into detail and you covered a lot of ground. He stated I do have the same concerns as Bob Detert and Rick have, however, I am also looking at it after having seen some areas that have been developed in Illinois and have looked at what they have done over there. He stated I would say if doable your plan is probably the one that could do it. He stated however, New Orleans was depending on pumps too.


He stated let me go ahead with just a few other things here too. He stated I am curious about the Town of Chesterton. He stated the Town of Chesterton’s limits are one half mile to the north and one half to the east from CR 50 W. and CR 1050 N. He stated the property to the north of this development bordering CR 1050 N. on the north side is now for sale. He stated the problem that I have is that a year or two ago the Town of Chesterton adopted and passed a Master Comprehensive Land Use Plan for the Town. He stated they designated your area as industrial business. He stated they did not find nearly the amount of wetlands that you have found. He stated I guess what concerns me is that annexation is probably a forgone conclusion in the future for this area and at that time will the Town of Chesterton look at your site and say, “Well, gosh, we could build some more homes in here and get a little more tax base.” He stated I would hate to see that happen because I think you have utilized every possible building site marginally. He stated my concern is the Town of Chesterton and how they are going to treat your subdivision and what they are going to do about their Master Plan in surrounding you with business and industrial zoning. He stated Chesterton’s Planning Commission is laboring under the miss understanding that Porter County has a two mile buffer agreement with them, which I understand does not exist. He stated another issue there had been mentioned of dedication to some of your open space to the Porter County Park System. He stated you mentioned bike paths using the present lane now. He stated I really am in favor of walking and bike paths. He stated I would like to see connectivity though because there is some potential or some speculation that a bike path might go from Valparaiso to Chesterton. He stated it could very possibly go down CR 50 W. because it might be a more meanable route than using Meridian. He stated a bike path similarly from the Chesterton High School to the west connecting to the Prairie Duneland at Crocker would be an ideal situation. He stated this is something to consider because you do have to remove some trees and brush along the right-of-ways of CR 1050 and CR 50 W. for visibility. He stated that is the way to do that is to create a little path down those areas. He stated the path will maintain itself pretty much just virtually through use. He stated these are things to consider. He stated another thing to consider is the traffic situation. He stated evidently there is a prediction of possibly an increase of 990 vehicles using both CR 50 W. and CR 1050 N. per day because of this subdivision. He stated there is an underpass under the former B & O now Chease System Railroad to the south about one mile or one mile and a half that came up in the county meeting not too long ago. He stated there was hopefully an agreement between the county and the railroad to improve that underpass. He stated if no one is familiar with that underpass it is a one lane underpass that is at an angle to the road. He stated you


don’t see the traffic on the other side until you are at the underpass and only one car can fit under the underpass. He stated it would be wonderful if approval of this subdivision were eminent or did occur that some leverage could be used by that increase in traffic to make the county once again approach the rail road for a new agreement. He stated I would really like to see that happen. He stated that is a dangerous underpass and it should not be allowed. He stated to my knowledge historically speaking CR 50 W. existed before the B & O Rail Road at least according to my maps. He stated concerning the pipeline issue. He stated I don’t know. He stated please remember historically when the toll road was built a similar pipeline that parallels this not very far away from it exploded during the reconstruction of that pipeline because of the toll road construction. He stated some people were killed and it was quite a spectacular event in its day. He stated pipelines always scare me and they worry me and I think that you have probably taken some adequate precautions but I just want to bring that up. He stated it has happened and it could happen. He stated I don’t know what they carry in that pipeline.

Mr. Babcock stated light petroleum.

Mr. Cole stated I really don’t have any more to say about that. He stated I am concerned about the Town of Chesterton and their idea and their future plans for this area should they annex into this area. He stated they are pretty adamant that they want this to be and remain industrial business.

Mr. Read stated when a developer comes along reserving some open space something like around 60% that grabs my attention right away. He stated favorably I might add. He stated I wish more developers would do that. He stated not only is it open space but as I understand it one of the objectives besides having home sites is to preserve wetlands. He stated I have been an advocate of preserving wetlands for many, many years and gradually people in the area have come around to the spot that that may be some value to preserving some wetlands. He stated so if this area goes industrial that will wipe out the wetlands and I would not like to see that happen. He stated the protection for wetlands and natural areas generally at the Federal level is diminishing every day. He stated at the State level is diminishing. He stated so if Porter County is to preserve any natural areas at all it is going to be up to us. He stated we can’t expect much help from the Feds or the State. He stated now the first thing I do when I review a subdivision and I have told this to everybody who comes up here and the Board has heard it many times but I will have to repeat it for the record. He stated I look at and see how this proposal fits within the


recommendation of our Master Plan. He stated we have a good Master Plan that emphasizes saving natural areas and open space, preserving farm land and one of those recommendations that our Master Plan does is to encourage subdivisions in what we call the urban fringe and discourage subdivisions way out in the boonies shall we say, the open areas. He stated now this does qualify for urban fringe. He stated what of the advantages of urban fringe is that presumably it is close enough that you can tack onto a sewer and water. He stated now we have had subdivision developers come in here with this same high water awful soil conditions wanting to do it with septic tanks and wells. He stated I have voted against such things. He stated in this case at least we have the option of sewer and water. He stated ironically the non-permeability of this soil is beneficial to saving a wetland. He stated so that is a benefit not a detriment. He stated we don’t want the water to go away if part of the objective is to preserve a wetland and open space. He stated now that said you have a high water table and I have lived for decades with a high water table so I know what the problems are. He stated if I were to build here I would not have any basement even if somebody considers it possible. He stated I would not recommend to any client architectural client of mine to have a basement. He stated my understanding is to keep the water on the site. He stated zero discharge I think is the term you used. He stated you have to remember there is always more water than you think. He stated where I lived didn’t show it as a wetland and yet over forty or fifty years I looked out there and there was water. He stated you have to do more than just consider the soil. He stated you have to have provision for more water than you really think is going to be there, which means that in some cases you might have to have an overflow pipe down to one of these ditches or another. He stated the matter of the preservation of the open space, the Open Space Ordinance gives you a number of options including forming your own 501C3. He stated you could call it the Preserve Foundation or something like that if you want to do it. He stated remember it has to be permanently done, permanently preserved and the wording of whatever your proposal has to be run past our attorney to make sure that it meets that standard. He stated some of the things that were brought up by the objectors that were here I felt were answered to a large extent and some of them are marginal. He stated I no longer talk about getting rid of water off of a subdivision site. He stated I talk about water management. He stated total water management. He stated the water that comes into the site and the water that goes off the site and the water that is absorbed by the site. He stated you have a water management task that you have to make sure that you meet and solve. He stated there are many cases here where we have assumed that the figures used…our Board does not have the expertise to


check out all the figures that you have here. He stated so if you wake up some morning and water if flowing over CR 1050 N. or CR 900 N. you are going to have a problem. He stated you are going to find some kind of an answer to it and I hope you do because I want to see this open space preserved. He stated the matter of the pumps. He stated what is your option. He stated I have no problems with sump pumps in the basement. He stated I have no problem educating home owners. He stated in affect you are self selecting. He stated it is a self selection type of thing. He stated the home owner that doesn’t want to play by the rules isn’t going to buy your property and isn’t going to build. He stated only the people who are willing to play by the rules are going to buy your property and that is a financial risk for you but I am glad to see that you are willing to do something out of the ordinary in order to preserve some of this open space. He stated now Chesterton didn’t want to have a lift station. He asked is that correct.

Mr. Babcock stated at this point in time that is what they said. He stated they are trying within their community to eliminate lift stations because it is ongoing maintenance. He stated they can eliminate a cost situation and that is what they are looking for. He stated so that is how the suggestion came to the engineers about using the e-one system.

Mr. Read stated if you were to use the usual way you would have a lift station there and it would be done the conventional way.

Mr. Babcock stated right.

Mr. Read stated Chesterton said they wanted a different way. He asked is that right.

Mr. Babcock stated they suggested that we look at our subdivision using this particular method.

Mr. Read stated I think you ought to look at back up systems. He stated you might have to make part of you requirement that they have generators and no basements. He stated maybe bigger storage for the interim.

Mrs. Marshall stated I have several concerns. She stated first of all I have a letter from the Porter County Surveyor that was sent to affected property owners. She stated it is a watershed map of the properties that are going to be assessed for the Swanson-Lamporte Ditch. She stated approximately one-third of this property is going to go, according to this map, to the Swanson-Lamporte Ditch.


Mr. Breitzke stated it currently goes.

Mrs. Marshall stated if we are going to change the water shed and I think you indicate that all the water is going to flow south. She asked is that correct.

Mr. Trevino stated yes, that is what our intention is to do.

Mrs. Marshall stated to flow it all to the south.

Mr. Trevino stated yes.

Mrs. Marshall stated nothing into the 50 W. ditch.

Mr. Trevino stated no.

Mrs. Marshall stated there will be no maintenance or reconstruction on the ditch at 50 W. that will go to the Swanson-Lamporte Ditch.

Mr. Trevino stated the ditch currently drains to the north through those culverts as we have indicated. He stated now if we are not going to change that drainage so that it comes on to our property. He stated it is basically roadway drainage.

Mrs. Marshall stated the next question I have is the second page of your presentation is a rendering by Davies/Rensberger Surveying. She stated first of all I find it a very unusual rendering because I have not seen one that delineates the wetlands like this particular thing does.

Mr. Trevino stated they are a land surveying firm and they were hired to not only do the property survey but also to identify the wetlands as identified by John McQuestion.

Mrs. Marshall stated this was done at the direction of John McQuestion.

Mr. Trevino stated no.

Mrs. Marshall stated I don’t recognize Mr. Rensberger as being an authority on wetlands.

Mr. Trevino stated he is not an authority. He stated John McQuestion had set out stakes low flags to identify the limits of the wetlands and the surveyor merely located those points on the property.



Mrs. Marshall stated Mr. Babcock it is my understanding that several years ago and I can’t tell you how many, that this property was in a preserve to and it had tax abatement I think is the purpose of it, to lower the taxes because it wasn’t usable because it was a wet property. She asked is that correct.

Mr. Babcock stated as part of the purchase it was and that is correct.

Mrs. Marshall asked when was that removed.

Mr. Babcock stated one year ago.

Mrs. Marshall stated so you have been working on these plans for over a year is that correct.

Mr. Babcock stated yes.

Mrs. Marshall stated this is a letter that accompanied your presentation in the book. She stated I think that this is an ideal thing that you would wish to happen. She stated it says, “Home owners will have the benefit of living close to town but in a more remote and natural setting, however they will be required to have a commitment to preserve the natural setting by attending initial and ongoing education seminars granting professional wetland managers access to their land and agreeing not to intentionally damage the wetlands.” She asked is that correct.

Mr. Babcock stated that is the proposal that we have and that is correct. He stated we intend to utilize again the existing 501C-3 corporation to be our wetland manager and that is part of what we want to have happen.

Mrs. Marshall stated that is the ideal situation.

Mr. Babcock stated yes.

Mrs. Marshall stated you can’t force the people that are going to live here.

Mr. Shinn stated in order for someone to close on their home they will be required just as much as they have to go to the bank to get the money to get the check they are going to have to attend a new customer orientation. He stated we are the developer and we are going to insist that they do that. He stated they may not like it but that may not be our customer either.

Mrs. Marshall stated okay so in this presentation you are


going to discuss with them this sewer system that you have. She stated you are going to talk about the environment around this house.

Mr. Radzik stated we are going to talk about the fact that you have natural sensitive areas in your back yard. He stated you are going to have a sign in your back yard that says you have natural sensitive areas in your back yard. He stated there is going to be wetland managers who may be in your back yard so there is going to be easements on potentially part of your back yard or property next to your back yard. He stated if you don’t like any of those things then you probably better off buying a lot over in Coffee Creek or Sand Creek or some place else and you are probably not the right person living in this subdivision.

Mrs. Marshall stated because of the letter I received from Mr. Shook and he read that into the record and I think his questions had some merit. She stated in your book you talk about the soils that are on this property. She stated I think that when you go to trial, Mr. Babcock, you would recognize that lawyers need to get on the same page. She stated let me get the book out and on page 79 you talk about your definitions that you submitted with your application. She stated however, I never got to page 79.

Mr. Babcock stated Mrs. Marshall what definitions are you talking about.

Mrs. Marshall stated the soils that are on this property. She stated on page 19, 25 and 31, which you have not given consideration to these definitely say that basements should not be put in these…that these are not suitable for basements. She stated however, in your inventory of lots one-third of the 99 lots approximately have basements in them. She stated would you tell me why you are going to insist on basements.

Mr. Babcock stated I don’t think insist is the right word, Mrs. Marshall.

Mrs. Marshall stated how can you eliminate the problems of a house that has a basement when in fact these soils all indicate that this property is not suitable for basements.

Mr. Trevino stated water seeks its own level. He stated generally speaking if you hit a water level at say 636 the water in that general area is going to be at 636. He stated many of the lots that we have indicated have at least a possibility of basements are elevations that “Part C” that elevation what the basement may be. He stated for instance again I refer to the


double cul-de-sac at the south end of the property. He stated that general area is around 646, 647, ten to eleven feet higher than what the water level would be. He stated a basement may go into the ground approximately seven feet, which would still give about three to four feet. He stated if a basement went in at seven to eight feet from the roadway elevation of which would be at a 640 elevation that basement elevation finished floor still may be higher than parts of the roadway that are proposed. He stated the elevations along the roadways are given in the plans and you will notice that as we move south those elevations generally rise. He stated so the elevation of the roadway may be at 646 at that south cul-de-sac. He stated the basements may be approximately seven or eight feet below that. He stated again they haven’t been designed so I really can’t tell exactly what elevation it is going to be. He stated that elevation would be 640 or 639 and would still be higher than the normal water level. He stated even the water level at the reduced area of 26 acres or so, which would increase that water level about a foot. He stated that would be approximately 637 to 637½.

Mrs. Marshall stated at TAC you indicated the driveways could be at 8% and I heard you say that before. She stated that means that are you going to remove muck and bring sand fill in to get the house so that it has that…you are going to raise the house.

Mr. Trevino stated that is what the engineer fill will also do too. He stated we will bring in materials so that we can bring up the elevation underneath those driveways to bring that house elevation above the roadway elevation.

Mrs. Marshall stated again I want to ask you that the soils that have been identified that soil around the house does not change.

Mr. Trevino stated where the house would be would be removed.

Mrs. Marshall stated it says in this front part of this book that Porter County had done says, “dwellings should be constructed without basements.” She stated one-third of your houses have basements.

Mr. Trevino stated I don’t want to put a generalization on the entire thing. He stated the south half is really where we are looking that we might have basements and the elevations will allow a significant cut into the land to build a basement level.

Mr. Breitzke stated why don’t we leave this to the


developer. He asked would you consider eliminating basements in this development.

Mr. Babcock stated I don’t know if we are ready to do that tonight.

Mrs. Marshall stated I feel very strongly about the basements in that area.

Mr. Read stated the developer can make a rule of no basements if he so desires.

Mrs. Marshall stated the roads that you are going to construct go through the wetlands. She stated is that a place where you take the muck out and you put fill in. She stated are you replacing it or do you think you have enough replacement for the wetlands that are there. She stated where are you going to replace the road situation. She stated you indicated I think 2.2 acres is what I remember you saying.

Mr. Babcock stated the roads will be about .8 acres of wetland area that we will impact. He stated we have on site at least 7 acres that was open space that wasn’t called for regulation that we would be able to mitigate that .8 that we are using for roadway.

Mr. Mix stated the Corps is going to require that mitigation to be at a 3:1 ratio. He stated if there was one acre that was lost there would be three acres replaced.

Mrs. Marshall stated lets go to the letter from the Army Corps of Engineers. She asked have you applied for a Federal permit.

Mr. Trevino stated right now it is still too early to apply for anything for construction in the wetland.

Mrs. Marshall stated do you believe that you need to apply for a Federal permit to work in those wetlands.

Mr. Rudzik stated we’ve hired J.F. New to help us and we have begun discussions with them. He stated basically about .4 of an acre of wetland disturbance will take place in the roadways and .4 will take place in making sure lots are big enough so you are not walking out your back door and you are in the middle of a wetland. He stated for that .8 of an acre in general it has been determined that these are high quality wetlands and mitigated at a 3:1 rate in hence the 2½ to 3 acres of mitigation, which on your plan is highlighted in color. He stated you can see the


mitigation zones that we are kind of proposing on the plan. He stated until we get kind of the final final plan we have not begun the application process.

Mrs. Marshall stated this letter to Mr. McQuestion it says, “Any discharges of dredge or fill material into the wetlands on this property will require a Federal permit.”

Mr. Trevino stated absolutely.

Mrs. Marshall stated so by the time you come for secondary you are going to have those in writing. She stated is that correct.

Mr. Babcock stated approvals.

Mrs. Marshall stated five of the lots are going to access CR 1050 N.

Mr. Babcock stated that is correct.

Mrs. Marshall asked are those five houses on CR 1050 going to each their own driveway or are you going to combine them and are you going to keep them off of the corner of CR 1050 and CR 50 W.

Mr. Trevino stated the driveways are shown on those particular lots at the request of TAC. He stated I believe you can look at the north half of the preliminary plat and it will show the actual location of where the driveways would be and the position to the intersection.

Mrs. Marshall stated I have a question about the pipeline. She stated I know that early on when pipelines went through property they got what they call a “blanket easement” and they just put it anywhere on the property. She stated has this pipeline easement been define to where you want it to be.

Mr. Trevino stated that actual easement covers only the centerline of the pipeline. He stated it is kind of worded kind of indirectly. He stated it only takes a ten-inch easement through the land but it gives you a direction for the whole line.

Mrs. Marshall stated a ten-inch easement.

Mr. Mix stated the easement document was written in 1957. He stated we had been in contact with the local office of Marathon pipeline as well as their regional real estate office and all of us are in agreement that the easement is not just poorly written but incorrect.

Mrs. Marshall stated incorrect meaning located incorrectly.

Mr. Mix stated incorrectly written and incorrectly located. He stated the Marathon field crew did go out and physically located the pipe on the property. He stated the pipe is approximately 13½ feet south southeast of where it is shown in the easement document. He stated again, the easement document is written incorrectly because if you strictly interpret that the easement is only ten-inches wide.

Mr. Breitzke stated the Department of Transportation sets Federal regulations of a minimum of 25-feet each side of centerline because of these blanket easements. He stated blanket easements are still written today because many times the pipelines don’t know where they are going until they construct it. He stated the minimum is still based on depth and sometimes even product or other issues. He stated these are issues that they are working to resolve right now at direction of TAC. He stated we also have an interest one to keep it out from under the road base, which I think they are agreeable to and secondly to perpetuate a bike path along it. He stated I understand that they are talking to the Marathon officials about something to work toward that. He stated as it has already been mentioned it is a light petroleum product that passes through it. He stated not a high pressured natural gas but still explosive and something that we handle with care.

Mrs. Marshall stated I think in 1950, 1960 farmers negotiated with these big pipelines that came through and they didn’t understand that you needed to restrict the pipeline to so many feet. She stated I hear of people going to court now to get them to…

Mr. Breitzke stated REMC is notorious for the same thing if I may say so and we are affected the same way in this county with their electrical easements.

Mrs. Marshall stated at the TAC meeting on August 5 Mr. Trevino stated that they had a letter from J.F. New that identifies the wetland. She asked have you submitted that to our office.

Mr. Trevino stated it is not from J.F. New. He stated it is from the Corps. He stated it is a letter in your packet.

Mrs. Marshall stated we have a copy of it. She stated when you have this entity set up that is going to take care of the remaining property, you talked about a park. She asked is that going to be an assessment to the homeowners that are going to live there.

Mr. Babcock stated yes the assessment will be there for the maintenance of the wetland area. He stated we are going to create an assessment for that so we can fund it so we have a way of paying for management. He stated so yes we will be assessing homeowners for that through the Homeowners Association.

Mrs. Marshall stated this system that you are going to have for the sewers this pressurized system, will those people that live here have to pay the Town of Chesterton for receiving their sewage.

Mr. Babcock stated they will get a sewer bill.

Mrs. Marshall stated this property is not in the…Utility’s Regulatory Committee would have to accept this property into the Town of Chesterton’s area. She asked is that right.

Mr. Babcock stated I don’t have that answer this evening.

Mrs. Marshall stated I know it is a territory thing.

Mr. Babcock stated yes it is. He stated they have expanded their territory all the way to the bottom end of the high school on CR 1050 there.

Mrs. Marshall stated the high school is something that I want to bring up. She stated it is my understanding that the high school has suffered some structural damage because it is built in this wetlands.

Mr. Babcock stated I can tell you that it was the basement locker room in the football facility and not the school. He stated it was determined that area before it was poured did not have connectivity between the rods that you put in there and the rods on the walls. He stated in other words it became a floating slab, which wasn’t supposed to be. He stated it has been completely taken care of and now it is permanent. He stated they did take care of that particular problem.

Mrs. Marshall stated that was because of the instability of the soil.

Mr. Babcock stated in that particular area, right. He stated again that was a plan that the engineers could have managed through and it didn’t get done properly.

Mrs. Marshall stated we had a situation come up in another subdivision that Mr. Harper is aware of where grading of the property then poured water on an adjoining property. She stated


who is going to be checking that grading level so that it is not left up to some contractor who then gets it too high and the water starts flowing where it shouldn’t be.

Mr. Babcock stated you mean from the time you apply for the building permit.

Mrs. Marshall stated yes.

Mr. Babcock stated part of what we have is we got our developer who is a builder will be available to do that from that perspective. He asked am I correct.

Mr. Shinn stated it is the first step after the process is the house plan. He stated putting the house plan on the lot would be the engineer’s responsibility to design that house on the lot and make sure that the drainage works, where it is going to go and how it is going to work. He stated at that point in time we submit for a building permit. He stated the county then looks at that permit process to make sure it drains correctly. He stated it will also be up to the builder to post a cash bond with the developer to make sure that the house works. He stated so after the home site is complete will that builder get their money back. He stated we have some controls to make sure that happens.

Mr. Breitzke stated Mrs. Marshall we also have that the recent Storm Water Ordinance introduce rear lot drainage so the Plan Commission and the Building Department watches exactly the same thing with the purpose of so there will be a partnership here of making sure that we don’t have a repeat of that kind of episode.

Mrs. Marshall stated I understand Mr. Shinn that you are going to be one of the builders.

Mr. Shinn stated yes.

Mrs. Marshall asked are you going to have an architect review committee and are you going to have other builders.

Mr. Shinn stated at this point in time it is going to be me for sure. He stated whether we take on other builders we just don’t know at this point in time. He stated there will be an architectural review committee, which will consist of Mark and myself and maybe some other people to review the plans, specifications, the landscape plan and everything that relates to the exterior of the home.

Mrs. Marshall stated so at this time you don’t have any outside builders.

Mr. Shinn stated correct.

Mrs. Marshall asked is there going to be a theme to this subdivision like traditional, early American.

Mr. Shinn stated the only theme we have is to preserve and what we are trying to do is create that atmosphere and the houses to be built along fitting the property. He stated so yes. He stated there will be some back porches, some woodsy areas and things like that. He stated as far as the houses we don’t know at this point in time.

Mrs. Marshall asked have you developed other subdivisions.

Mr. Shinn stated in Indiana yes. He stated north of Chesterton, which is a town called Dune Acres we have lots right now in the Dunes.

Mrs. Marshall asked have you done subdivisions.

Mr. Shinn stated yes, the subdivision of Dune Acres. He stated also another one in Chesterton called Tamarack Plaza, which was a commercial project.

Mrs. Marshall asked how long have you been in business.

Mr. Shinn stated 8 years.

Mrs. Marshall stated why did you meet with Coffee Creek Conservancy about some matters.

Mr. Shinn stated I met with at least two or three 501C-3 organizations to see what their interest might be in managing our site. He stated at this point in time we don’t have it narrowed down to anybody as far as who we would like to use or if anybody would show an interest.

Mrs. Marshall stated it says here that you made contact with J.F. New and the Corps and you think that the plans were submitted two weeks ago. She stated they are pending at this time.

Mr. Shinn stated J.F. New has a copy of our plans and has started the process for the permit with the Army Corps. He stated they have not been submitted to the Army Corps yet.

Mrs. Marshall asked how wide are the filter strips going to be.



Mr. Shinn stated the filter strips will be in the back yards abutting up to the wetland areas or any area that backs up to a sensitive area. He stated as far as how wide and how deep and what materials they are and things like that we are working with J.F. New to make sure that we have the right native plants. He stated they should be at least five feet wide and there are some certain specifications that we have to follow.

Mrs. Marshall asked Mr. Babcock could you point out some area where they use this sewer system.

Mr. Babcock stated the only one that they made me familiar with is Pepper Creek.

Mr. Shinn stated there are also two other projects in Valparaiso and one is Bregatta Hills and Beauty Creek. He stated I think Beauty Creek is already in the process.

Commissioner Harper stated Kevin let me ask you a question. He stated these drainage calculations that we have and how the drainage is going to work on this subdivision, I go through these TAC notes and it just seems to roll along. He asked has these figures been worked by someone from TAC or has someone sat down and gone through these figures.

Mr. Breitzke stated we review the numbers and look…

Commissioner Harper stated my question is does somebody rework these figures.

Mr. Breitzke stated to answer your question, no. He stated we did not rework or recalculate the figures.

Commissioner Harper stated then how can you tell us everything is okay if you don’t rework those figures. He stated I don’t understand that.

Mr. Breitzke stated I would love to have the luxury to rework everything but in this case where we can go back through and generally…

Commissioner Harper stated I don’t question you not having the time to do it.

Mr. Breitzke stated but generally speaking I can look at the calculations and there are several things that you go on. He stated we look at the volumes they calculate to be realistic for the land that they have in accordance with the topography the soils. He stated we are looking at basically at storage. He


stated we are looking at the amount of rain coming down and making sure that that actually works out. He stated those numbers look pretty good for what they have. He stated I really didn’t have a problem with that. He stated things will stick out as far as coefficients, calculations and that kind of thing.

Commissioner Harper stated it would seem to me that when you have a piece of property like this, which they are attempting to work with and everyone acknowledges is difficult, you just can’t eyeball this and say it looks pretty good. He stated it seems to me that there is a lot…there have been questions here about basements. He stated this raises questions in my head.

Mr. Breitzke stated regardless of drainage calculations. He stated basements don’t really figure into that. He stated it is a storage issue with the surrounding land and they have more than abundant storage. He stated they need overflow protection and they are providing that as far as where the water goes to give it good direction and water shed management is usually the key. He stated typical substandard subdivision we are looking at a detention pond where we collect all of this water into a smaller area. He stated then all of a sudden when we are looking at heights the forces of the water itself and making sure it is not rushing out onto that neighboring property and just really blasting somebody. He stated that is one of the key issues that we deal with. He stated right now we are looking at a large bowl. He stated this is a different type of storage mechanism. He stated you are dealing with a totally different type of philosophy that is not…you do the standard engineering for the storage and the amount of water you have to deal with.

Commissioner Harper stated so really they come up with these calculations for this very, very complicated subdivision, we eyeball them and they are probably okay.

Mr. Breitzke stated I think they are okay. He stated I don’t think it is probably.

Commissioner Harper stated I heard this term “no discharge” several times tonight. He asked what does that mean to me as a lay person.

Mr. Breitzke stated zero discharge is often discussed as you don’t have a discharge greater than what was running off the land before. He stated that is one zero net discharge. He stated the other one is looking at trying to reduce that flow. He stated so you truly don’t have a discharge. He stated when we are discussing storm water where we were talking about some places where they will tweak it down to getting one or two cubic


feet a second, which is the erosive forces of the water is the thing that we are really trying to manage. He stated the reality is the rain falls onto the earth and it collects. He stated here is a point where you want to have the water run into something eventually but you don’t want to focus it to the point where it is damaging to the surrounding properties, to the surrounding environment. He stated we have a couple of things happening here with the wetland management practices. He stated there is more absorbency in the soils and that will help. He stated the plants themselves typically really get a lot of their moisture out of the air. He stated that we haven’t really come up with good numbers. He stated honestly I think Purdue, University of Michigan and Michigan State have been working at trying to quantify that even better than what we have now. He stated from the basic engineering their charge is to quantify how much water comes down. He stated especially if it hits an impervious surface such as roadways and rooftops where it speeds up. He stated how do we get it to slow down again. He stated the next thing is that we are becoming more and more concerned with is how do we get it cleaner before it gets into the waterways. He stated they are addressing issues above and beyond what are normally called for.

Commissioner Harper stated when we have been using the word zero discharge tonight what does that mean. He stated you are asking me to vote on something that I don’t understand. He stated I am not an engineer.

Mr. Breitzke stated let them tell you what they have designed for.

Commissioner Harper stated I want you to tell me as you reviewed this and as you are sitting here listening tonight what do you think zero discharge is.

Mr. Breitzke stated okay I will tell you for zero discharge at a hundred year they are not discharging anything. He stated but beyond that because you can have subsequent storms then they…then they start going to Pope O’Connor. He stated there should be nothing coming out of this system for that hundred year storm.

Commissioner Harper stated why are we talking about these drainage ditches and assessments if we have zero discharge.

Mr. Breitzke stated this is apart from it. He stated my interest in the drainage of the area is the subsurface drainage. He stated when we clean our ditches and get the water tables lower locally it starts a draw down locally of a few feet, which


increases the storage capacity of the soils typically. He stated even though the permeability rates are slow in these soils as are in most of Porter County what we see in soil is about 25% void. He stated it is either filled with water or air and if we can get the water in the ditch down to maybe four feet it creates an extra foot of storage in the ground. He stated that water will tend to run off towards those water sheds even though it may not do it over ground any more I still have a concern that underground there might be a transmission. He stated people talk about these springs but the reality is we have a field tile in other places where the water gets through the ground and itself that discharges. He stated it can go a pretty far distance. He stated those are the things that we are dealing with.

Commissioner Harper stated you are telling me that you believe going over this plan that this…here is what zero discharge means to me. He stated when they get this thing built and it comes a good rain there is no water, none, that is going to go on a neighbor or into that ditch.

Mr. Breitzke stated for a hundred year storm, yes. He stated it should all stay on that property.

Commissioner Harper stated I would like to ask Mr. Shook a couple of questions. He stated Mr. Shook where is your property in relationship to this property.

Mr. Shook stated to the west right by the overpass.

Commissioner Harper asked do you abut this property.

Mr. Shook stated I am across CR 50 W.

Commissioner Harper stated when there is a heavy rain do you agree with those pictures that they showed up there where the water stands.

Mr. Shook stated the water comes right up to CR 50 W. where my mailbox stands.

Commissioner Harper asked does it come across the road.

Mr. Shook stated no. He stated the road stops it when it comes up to the road.

Commissioner Harper asked does it fill in any of the areas where there is going to be houses.

Mr. Shook stated it used to. He stated the one cul-de-sac there in the middle where the pipeline is.

Commissioner Harper stated the water from this property does not run onto your property.

Mr. Shook stated it does not run onto me.

Mrs. Marshall stated Mr. Shook did you say that the water runs in the ditch along CR 50 W. into the Swanson-Lamporte.

Mr. Shook stated from along CR 50 W. it runs to the north.

A gentleman in the audience stated it goes over CR 1050 not under.

Mrs. Marshall stated so that third of that subdivision drains to the north through this side ditch.

Mr. Shook stated yes.

Mrs. Marshall asked are you agreeing with that Mr. Babcock.

Mr. Babcock stated I am not the engineer.

Mr. Trevino stated we stated approximately a third of that…there are kind of natural damns and depressions on that property. He stated when we say the water flows it is not like a river flows. He stated it reaches a certain elevation and overflows some of those natural damns that just happened with that land. He stated throughout the contouring you can see high spots and low spots throughout the entire property. He stated when we say it flows it is only after it hits a certain elevation and then as we said before water reaches its own level. He stated once it goes below that elevation it will no longer continue to do that. He stated when we say we are going to promote the water to drain south we are not going to go into those wetlands and get rid of some of those natural damns because we don’t want to go the Corps and get that kind of permitting. He stated what we are doing then is draining the wetlands. He stated we are not out to drain the wetlands. He stated those natural wetlands that are occur on the north we are going to leave. He stated on the part that are natural damns close to the roadway we are going to lower that elevation so that water once it hits a certain elevation it will start flowing south where we have the main wetland area.

Mrs. Marshall stated you have to admit here that this land was at one time put into a preserve for tax abatement because they couldn’t farm it. She stated there was no income off of this property.



Mr. Radzik stated absolutely it was put in the DNR restricted and why they did it whether they wanted to pay lower taxes or whether they wanted to hunt deer there we don’t know.

Mrs. Marshall stated when it was sold I think you have to pay the back taxes.

Mr. Radzik stated the seller paid them.

Commissioner Harper stated I would like to ask Mr. Huseman a question. He asked are you directly north of this?

Mr. Huseman stated yes.

Commissioner Harper stated you have lived there for 23 years.

Mr. Huseman stated yes.

Commissioner Harper stated when you saw the map they had where the water stood do you agree with that.

Mr. Huseman stated it is pretty wet up there.

Commissioner Harper stated during those 23 years when there is a heavy rain where do you see it standing on this property or does it not stand on this property.

Mr. Huseman stated yes you can see it on the road and it is flowing directly into the Swanson-Lamporte Ditch in a very heavy rain.

Commissioner Harper stated do you see standing water on that property.

Mr. Huseman stated right. He stated along CR 1050 mostly.

Mr. Radzik stated I don’t think anyone has driven these roads with all the trees on them would say that there is not standing water on the roads or next to the roads. He stated we are not saying that at all. He stated in fact there is. He stated there has always been standing water along CR 50 W. and particularly along CR 1050. He stated what we are saying is when you get into the property, which unfortunately with no disrespect to my neighbors it is different from inside the property from what you see on the roads. He stated we tried to take what was a normal year to begin with and you can see where all the water is.

Commissioner Harper stated Mr. Marx you said that water goes over CR 1050. He asked how long have you lived out there.

Mr. Marx stated I have lived there for thirteen years.

Commissioner Harper stated where do you live.

Mr. Marx stated I live just to the north of Mr. Huseman on the other side of the road and when I go down CR 1050 and CR 50 W. where the five lots are right here and maybe my interpretation is a lot different then yours but I see water all the way in here and it is not just in the ditch. He stated I think the gentleman down there and I have talked with Kevin on this right across from the property that is for sale now there is a house here that in wet weather pumps constantly and that water travels down here and this whole part in here in normal years all have water.

Mr. Breitzke stated Jim, I think the house is further east.

Mr. Marx stated yes, I am sorry.

Mr. Read stated they have already said and acknowledge that that area is wet south of CR 1050. He stated he has already shown it as being wet and part of the objective is to preserve the wetland but not to let it go onto somebody else’s property or go over the road. He stated the main thing that we want to make sure is that we don’t have water flowing over CR 1050 or CR 900. He stated I think that is the question that Bob is asking. He stated does that water flow over CR 1050.

Mr. Marx stated yes it does. He stated Mark just said that all the water just sits in this ditch. He stated I don’t agree with that. He stated I think it goes back here and the guy that did the soil samples said that they would probably be able to build three houses in there with septics. He stated that is not with the Chesterton sewers.

Mrs. Marshall stated Mr. Marx on CR 1050 then it flows to the east and it flows to the 50 west ditch and then it goes north. She asked is that what happens.

Mr. Marx stated correct. He stated I do agree with that. He stated Kevin and I have some problems with this area right here. He stated I say it flows this way into Swanson but he says it flows this way into the Pope O’Connor.

Mr. Read stated the five houses that are in the northwest corner are you saying that that is not on dry land.

Mr. Marx stated in normal years I don’t think that is good dry land. He stated I brought that up with Kevin. He stated I have a big problem with building in here.


Mr. Read stated so your problem is those five houses in that corner.

Mr. Marx stated I don’t have any problem with people that are going to build because they own the land and they should be able to if they meet the requirements. He stated my only reason for being here is to say where they say a zero drainage even if that mean now they are not going to exceed what they have today. He stated even if they put 99 lots in here and like I said my original questions this didn’t look like this pond here grew as much as all these ponds here. He stated when you put these five houses in I am afraid with this road here you are going to have more of a water problem here then you have ever had before.

Mr. Read stated so you think that those houses in the northwest corner are going to be flooded out or could be flooded out in a heavy rain when they put in that new road.

Mr. Marx stated I assume that since it has been wet previously that it is going to stay wet when you do that.

Commissioner Harper stated the man is saying the water stands where those houses are after a heavy rain. He stated let’s get it straight on what he is saying. He stated he may be right or he may be wrong but that is what he is saying.

Mr. Marx stated that is what I observed. He stated it will drain off and go over CR 1050 until it reaches that level and then it is just all backed up there. He stated as it can be accepted under CR 1050 the drain on the east side of CR 50 W. is the only drain for this property. He stated they brought up two drains. He stated one here and one on this side of CR 50 W. He stated they can’t find the culvert that goes under the road. He stated right Mark. He stated so the water goes this way on top of the road and the water goes this way on top of the road. He stated when it gets down to the road level then it gets all accepted through whatever kind, a 12-inch, a 16 or 18-inch drain and that starts draining all of this coming all the way from the toll road as Mr. Shook said. He stated all this water comes down and all of this water comes down and water from here comes down. He stated that is what I have observed.

Mr. Read stated that is the point that I am trying to get at. He stated when we say across the road I mean over the road surface.

Mr. Marx stated yes sir, it does both ways.

Mr. Read stated so what you are saying that CR 1050 and CR


50 W. there are times when the water level is at road level and goes over the road paved.

Mr. Marx stated yes it does.

Mr. Read stated that is what I am trying to determine. He stated now I would like to ask the developers that being the case how do you plan to address that.

Mr. Trevino stated one of the things that we have is a culvert crossing our new entrance, which flows from the north to the south.

Mr. Read stated so your new entrance has a culvert going north and south.

Mr. Trevino stated this is one of the sheets that was in our submittal. He stated there is a culvert that will be placed underneath our entrance that flows from the north to the south. He stated there is an open space area here. He stated we could actually cut down and create a swale that would help drain once it gets past a certain elevation. He stated again, we don’t want to go too low to drain the water or loose the water from the wetland. He stated at this point the centerline of the intersection at CR 1050 and CR 50 is 611.9 feet. He stated our culvert elevation is at 640.1 feet. He stated the invert is one foot below that elevation. He stated we would be promoting once it gets to 640.1 feet that the water is flowing south. He stated the houses along CR 1050…

Mr. Read stated what is the elevation of the land.

Mr. Trevino stated the elevation of the land generally right along here is a 642 contour but again there are pockets that are lower than that, which hold water. He stated this is the area that is delineated. He stated there is a big area here and nobody has denied it that holds water because that is the elevation that the water will stay at. He stated the houses however are approximately 2½ go 3 feet above the roadway surface.

Mr. Read stated it seems to me that those five houses are marginal at best. He stated I would recommend that if you get the approval to go ahead with the rest of the area to leave those five houses to last to see what actually does happen say five years from now.

Mr. Trevino stated it is true that we did find two 12-inch culverts across CR 1050. He stated this one is flowing but it is not at 100% the pipe. He stated that wouldn’t be anything to


replace. He stated we could replace that with the same elevation. He stated it would have a cmp, a corragated metal pipe and it bends up at the end of the opening…

Commissioner Harper stated if you are talking about running water through that culvert then you don’t have zero discharge do you.

Mr. Trevino stated the discharge isn’t from the property. He stated the discharge would be from the roadway and whatever is inside the roadway side ditches that occur.

Commissioner Harper stated this guy back here that says that he drives along here and there is water standing here. He asked did you take that into your calculations on getting rid of that water standing on the roadway like that.

Mr. Trevino stated yes. He stated what our calculations show is that at what elevation will this water start moving.

Commissioner Harper stated when you were doing this work did you say that there was water standing in this roadway at certain times and down in here.

Mr. Trevino stated yes.

Commissioner Harper stated then why didn’t your pond show that when you showed that increase over that. He stated what you are telling me is that you have plans to take all of this water somewhere else on this property.

Mr. Trevino stated what we are saying that are model did show pockets of water throughout here.

Commissioner Harper stated but he is saying all along here.

Mr. Trevino stated we are working by elevations. He stated we have this culvert here at 640.1 feet that any water that accumulates here will stay until it hits a time when it can over flow and come…that is why it didn’t grow very much. He stated it is only going to stay in that area because there isn’t really that much development. He stated the development from this doesn’t generate that much off of the houses. He stated the roads are higher than the street the driveway drainage is going to flow to the street. He stated the runoff will hit certain elevations and then go to our culvert and then flow south. He stated we have another culvert right here where it will do the same thing.

Mr. Breitzke stated I would like to add that we asked them


to do first floor elevations for the plan that they submitted to this Board. He stated typically the elevations are about 3 to 3½ feet above existing ground. He stated at that corner presumably they are lifting the whole thing.

Commissioner Harper stated when you figured the calculations did you accept it as true that after a good heavy rain water is standing at the corner where those five houses are going to be.

Mr. Breitzke stated no, it is not going to be true because we haven’t put in drainage to the south. He stated the existing situation is if we just walk away and leave it as it is it will probably get worse. He stated the trees fall and dam up the water. He stated they force the water in every direction that isn’t manageable.

Commissioner Harper stated is it factual what this man says, Mr. Marx, that when we get a good heavy rain there is water standing in this area.

Mr. Breitzke stated yes, behind where the houses are.

Commissioner Harper stated he is not saying behind where the houses are. He stated let’s get that straight. He stated if he is saying that it is true that you calculated how that water is going to be handled.

Mr. Breitzke stated they designed it to outlet to the south. He stated that is how we managed the engineering calculations. He stated we look at where they send the water. He stated so basically we are setting a water elevation to reduce that possibility. He stated additionally the intersection was graveled. He stated the Highway has actually built up the road on both sides and that might be when they put in the other 12-inch. He stated the whole idea is looking at the package as a whole. He stated we know what exists and what we are looking for is an improvement for what we have now. He stated what we have now is not good and what we have in the future if nothing is done is even worse.

Commissioner Harper stated we have sat here tonight and had a lot of representations and back and forth and this and that. He stated whatever is done and whether the members of this Board vote for or against this I think that some of this stuff better be gotten down in writing before a vote is taken.

Mr. Babcock stated what you are looking at are commitments in writing that would be submitted with the plans that outline those areas.

Mr. Read stated I would recommend to your client that he chuck the five in the northwest corner.

Mr. Detert stated our biggest problem in Porter County with subdivisions is drainage. He stated now we are being panicked into something that we don’t have any idea how it is going to work. He stated the developer comes in here and he says he is going to have a fund if I understood him right and he is going to manage that fund and that is going to manage the water. He stated what happens if he goes bankrupt. He stated what if he goes under. He stated what happens if he moves to Illinois. He stated I don’t know and that is why I don’t like this. He stated I read his letter from J.F. New that this is going to be a difficult place to build on. He stated but he did say it would lend itself to residential. He stated if that is the case and it can be built residential I think we have way too much density in here for all the water that we got. He stated we are going to manage the water with rain barrels and rain gardens. He stated this is ridiculous. He stated we have West Niles virus in this county and we are going to have standing water in rain barrels and water gardens. He stated I don’t think we know enough about how they are going to manage this and what happens if we have two one hundred year storms in one month. He stated your presentation was real nice. He stated it takes care of one hundred year storm.

Mr. Mix stated we have looked beyond the one hundred year storm. He stated we ran into some problems with data for a storm that big being collected. He stated the way we looked at it if we had back to back to back hundred year storms the calculations show between five and six of those before all hell breaks loose. He stated then everybody is flooded everywhere. He stated unfortunately statistically there is no data available from the State or the Federal Government that goes to that big flood. He stated we did the best we could.

Mr. Detert stated all I know about ten or fifteen years ago we had hundred year storms two or three a month for months. He stated I saw water going down County Line Road going into Lake Holiday 8-feet deep. He stated I saw one lot over from my house 4-feet deep. He stated you have a high water level area here and we are going to get those kinds of storms some day and what is going to happen. He stated everybody is going to get flooded out there.

Mr. Breitzke stated you also have a high water area around you, Bob. He stated I ask these guys…

Mr. Detert stated not like what we are talking about here.



Mr. Breitzke stated this is kind of an unusual situation and when we discussed this their charge was to prepare for the mother of all storms. He stated we have not asked developers to look into things this deep. He stated the graphics were something that they presented to give a real look to this thing and that was part of the concept. He stated I will recognize Mr. Huseman.

Mr. Huseman stated I want to make a comment about the flow along CR 50 W. versus CR 1050 N. going into the Lamporte Ditch versus going into the Pope O’Connor Ditch. He stated I would say that about 80% to 90% goes into the Lamporte Ditch. He stated there is very little that goes into the Pope Ditch. He stated it mostly stagnates along CR 1050 but flows heavily along CR 50 W.

Mr. Breitzke stated currently the hydrologic unit coding includes their north 40 acres and Swanson Lamporte. He stated we are hoping to reverse that trend and keep more of the water on site. He stated that is what they are designing for is alleviate it. He stated there will still be water there and there is going to wetlands there. He stated that is also the thing that they are trying to protect. He stated the idea is to direct the water more southerly, hold it on site and try to accomplish some of the things that can happen.

Mr. Detert moved to deny Case 05-P-21 on the basis that the petitioner hasn’t provided enough information for us to feel secure on the water issue. Mr. Burns seconded the motion.

Discussion:

Mr. Read stated the motion to deny is pending something.

Mr. Detert stated the petitioner has not provided enough information for us to feel secure on the water handling.

Mr. Read stated do you have ideas on what additional information should be provided.

Mr. Whitten stated we have a motion of the floor and I call for the question.

Motion carried on the following ballot vote:

Burns - Yes Cole - No Detert - Yes
Harper - Yes Marshall - Yes Read - No
Whitten - Yes Breitzke - No




Case 05-M-5. Petition of the Porter County Plan Commission, 155 Indiana Ave., Suite 304, Valparaiso, Indiana for a proposed Storm Water Design Manual.

Mr. Breitzke stated this is the companion piece for the Storm Water Ordinance that had first reading at the Commissioners about four weeks ago.

Commissioner Harper stated it passed on the first reading.

Mr. Breitzke stated we proposed the Storm Water Design Manual to be an internal policy document and a guidance that can be addressed as issues come up and we can make it more adaptable to what we really want in the long run.

Commissioner Harper stated that document does not have to go before the County Commissioners.

At this time, Mr. Thompson went through the Storm Water Design Manual.

Mr. Thompson stated also this is a resolution adopted by the Plan Commission so that way if best management practices comes in or we see that something isn’t working we can quickly change this and it is a working document, our working document.

Tim Chesna stated I live at 550 E. 150 N. He stated when you calculate by the acre say for a new development do the calculations change for the soils.

Mr. Thompson stated if you are using a hydrograph method it does take into account the soil conditions based on the NRCS on whether it is an “A” soil, “B” soil, “C” and “D.” He stated if you are using the rational method I do not believe this takes too much consideration into the soil type conditions.

Mr. Chesna stated when you are going into a private easement going to a regulated drain if you are going through a private easement to get to the regulated drain that is going to change. He asked somehow I didn’t hear anything.

Mr. Thompson stated one of the example I gave is if you have a development and your pond outlets and there is another parcel between you and that defined drainage way you must obtain an easement across the property that you are draining onto to get to the defined drainage way. He stated one of the reasons for the eas