PORTER COUNTY PLAN COMMISSION

Regular Meeting
February 11, 2004

M I N U T E S

The regular meeting of the Porter County Plan Commission was held on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 at 6:30 p.m. in the Administrative Center, 155 Indiana Ave., Suite 205, Valparaiso, Indiana.

Those members present were Mike Bucko, Robert Detert, Commissioner Harper, Frank Mahnic, Bob Poparad, Mike Sheetz and Kevin Breitzke, President. Staff members present were Robert W. Thompson Jr., Patricia S. Gibson, Fred Siminski and Attorney Lily Schaefer.

Mr. Mahnic moved to waive the reading of the January 28, 2004 minutes and approve them as received in the mail. Mr. Bucko seconded the motion, which carried on a unanimous voice vote.

Mr. Thompson stated that there is no new business for the February 25 meeting. He is asking that the meeting be canceled.

Mr. Detert moved to cancel the February 25, 2004 Plan Commission meeting. Mr. Mahnic seconded the motion, which carried on a unanimous roll call vote.

Pending Business:

Case 04-Z-1. Petition of Bear Creek Investments, LLC, 4987 W. U.S. Hwy 20, Michigan City, Indiana for a proposed amendment to the Master Plan to rezone a parcel of land from I-2, General Industry to RR, Rural Residential, to allow a single family residence to be located on the South side of U.S. Hwy 12 between CR 500 E. and Broadway in Pine Township, Porter County, Indiana. (con't from 1-28-04 mtg. Public hearing is closed.)

Jan Erkert stated she lives at 1320 North Point in Chicago, Illinois.

Mr. Mahnic stated he has a copy of what Mr. Brust gave him from the last meeting. He stated is says that part of

parcel #3 is not included in this here. He asked if this is the actual piece that you want rezoned.

Mr. Brust stated that this is correct.

Mr. Mahnic asked what does this mean.

Mr. Brust stated he does not know.

Mr. Mahnic stated what he is getting at is if it includes this piece here it concerns him that someone is going to run a road through here eventually to here. He stated we don't want to have a road running through and then we have an annoyed neighbor over here because someone is accessing a piece of industrial land here.

Mr. Brust stated this is the proposed owner of this parcel that ends right there and this is where they are requesting a rezoning.

Mrs. Erkert stated there is a big sand dune right in this area right here. She stated it would be impossible to run a road through here.

Mr. Mahnic stated this is the piece of land that we are talking about.

Mrs. Erkert stated that this was correct. She stated this is the piece of property that they would like to buy.

Mr. Mahnic asked if they were the owners of this piece of property here.

Mrs. Erkert stated no. She stated there is a single-family residence on that property there.

Mr. Brust stated there was a minor subdivision granted there in 1999.

Mr. Mahnic asked if they will be accessing off of Rt. 20.

Mrs. Erkert stated they will be accessing off of Rt. 12. She stated they already have a driveway permit from the State.

Mr. Mahnic asked if their plans are to build more homes or just one home.

Mrs. Erkert stated they plan on building only one home.

Mr. Mahnic stated it still bothers him that somebody could run a road down through here.

Mr. Brust stated one of the other issues that were brought up if this were used for the I-2 purposes if someone put a business back here any business would actually impact the minor subdivision that was done a few years ago. He stated there is only a 54 foot shared property line there and houses are going to be located up in this area. He stated if you look at the handout that he gave the members if you go back to where the house is it actually gets away from the I-2 zoning to the east of it. He stated the first page that he submitted shows the overall zoning maps for the County. He stated he tried to highlight yellow, which indicates where the subject property is on the first page. He stated on the second page that shows the survey of the area. He stated directly across is Beverly Shores, the South Shore Train and if you actually continue west two parcels from where this map cuts off is the Beverly Shores Post Office. He stated there is a residence next to it. He stated the parcel that has the four highlighted is a single-family residence. He stated five and six is one owner and is a single-family residence. He stated the next pink dot indicates the minor subdivision that was done five years ago. He stated that is a residence. He stated on the east side of this property is also a single-family residence.

Mr. Poparad asked Mr. Thompson if the surrounding property is zoned that way.

Mr. Thompson stated there is a residence to the east of this parcel that is zoned I-2.

Mr. Poparad asked if this is zoned I-2 in here.

Mr. Brust stated the I-2 does not run the full depth of that property.

Mr. Poparad asked to the east of this is also zoned I-2.

Mr. Brust stated this is the minor subdivision that was done five years ago. He stated everything to the west is residential. He stated directly on the east side of this property is zoned I-2 but there is a single-family residence and a shed there. He stated they tried to look in the records to see if there had ever been a rezone there or a variance granted. He stated the house has been there for quite some time. He stated the point that he was trying to make is that if you look at the front page of the handouts the I-2 actually cuts over here and goes all the way to the corner. He stated where the proposed house is the reason they are not concern there is that there house is going to be further back where it will not be adjacent to the I-2 zoning and even though this is I-2 zoning because this property is about 90 feet in elevation it goes up to 120 feet at the property and then back down to the 90 foot range to where the house is going to be. He stated the couple that is buying this property will actually have their own sand dunes. He stated even if this owner got a permit to take out all of the sand and everything that was included in there they would still have their own dunes that would protect them.

Mr. Detert stated he thinks that this is an unusual parcel of land that is also somewhat unusual for someone to come in and want us to down zone a piece of property. He stated there are already residences in the area. He stated these people understand what they are getting into.

Mr. Detert moved to forward Case 04-Z-1 to the Board of Commissioners with a favorable recommendation. Mr. Mahnic seconded the motion.

Discussion:

Mr. Poparad stated he is the one that started this. He stated you build your house and five years from now you move away and the person you sell it to…all he ever hears is spot zoning is not a good thing. He stated we could grant them a use variance and they could still use the property to their extent. He stated if we start this spot zoning here then we might as well open the doors. He stated he is not adverse to them building a house.

Mr. Detert stated he has a problem with that because there are houses there already. He stated he understands what Mr. Poparad is saying. He stated it is a mixed neighborhood already and it can happen to all the others.

Motion carried on the following ballot vote:

Bucko - Yes Detert - Yes Harper - Yes
Mahnic - Yes Poparad - Yes Sheetz - Yes
Breitzke - No

This case will be heard by the County Commissioners on March 16, 2004 at 11:00 a.m.

Case 03-P-17. Petition of Hampton Downs LLC, c/o Todd Leeth, Hoeppner, Wagner & Evans LLP, 103 E. Lincolnway, Valparaiso, Indiana seeking primary plat approval for Hampton Manor Subdivision to be located on the North side of CR 500 N. between CR 250 W. and CR 175 W. in Center Township, Porter County, Indiana. (con't from the December 10, 2003 mtg. The public hearing is closed.)

Todd Leeth stated he is here on behalf of the developers of Hampton Manor Subdivision. He stated as you know they have been before the Commission previously and drainage seems to be the key, if not the record would indicate, the only issue that the Commission continues to have concerns with in regards to the Gesse's who are the property owners immediately to the west. He stated the public hearing on this matter was held on November 12, 2003 and following that the Commission remanded this back to TAC, which then reviewed it and then sent it back to the Commission. He stated TAC reviewed it again after they originally did on December 5, 2003. He stated they returned to the Commission on December 10, 2003 after that. He stated now TAC has reviewed it twice and they came back to the Commission on December 10, 2003. He stated at that time, Mr. Bengel provided to the Commission a narrative explanation of the drainage plan and the Commission's action at that point was to again return it to TAC. He stated they have done this. He stated he has passed out to the members a copy of the minutes of the January 9, 2004 TAC meeting where they, for a third time, reviewed the drainage plan for this project. He stated he doesn't want to summarize or speak for TAC except that the bottom line is that there was a motion made by Mr. Walker to approve the drainage plan for Hampton Manor and remand it back to the Plan Commission. He stated there were three members of TAC present and all three voted in favor of that motion.

Mr. Poparad asked who is Mr. Walker and what chair does he sit on up here.

Mr. Breitzke stated Charles Walker is on the Technical Advisory Committee and he is the D.C. for the Soil and Water Conservation District. He stated Mr. Walker is appointed by this Commission.

Mr. Mahnic stated he is a Federal Conservation man. He stated he knows Mr. Walker and he has known him for quite a few years and he is very sharp. He stated you can rely on what he says as far as he is concerned. He stated this is his opinion. He stated Mr. Walker has been sitting on the TAC Board for many, many, years.

Mr. Detert asked what is Mr. Schelling's position on this.

Mr. Breitzke stated Mr. Schelling reviewed this the previous times at TAC.

Mr. Detert asked if Mr. Schelling had any concerns about water problems

Mr. Breitzke stated the problem is the constraints of preliminary plat requirements put on us at that point. He stated in the minutes you will notice that he remarked we need to rewrite that particular part of the ordinance. He stated the development plan at the very least can be a conceptual type of plan with the engineering to be proved out later, which is really not a good route to go. He stated there are certain allowances in the way the ordinances are written today. He stated the fact of the matter is they conform to the requirements of the ordinance as far as the release rate of the water. He stated we wanted better control and they offered better control of the water, reducing the outlet pipe, which necessarily restricts and holds back the water in the pond for a longer period of time. He stated more infiltration will take place more evaporation and many positive things could be a result of holding back the water. He stated the only issues that we have pertaining to preliminary plat are some of the proposals for road construction, as far as the grades, particularly the road that goes off to the west toward the Gesse's. He stated that should be graded back to the central line in the subdivision where the roads intersect the subdivision and also better water control along that west line. He stated these are things that are usually brought up prior to final plat with the actual working utility and construction drawings.

Mr. Detert stated he was just wondering what Mr. Schelling's position had been throughout the meetings.

Mr. Breitzke stated he and Mr. Schelling have talked in length about this as well as Mr. Walker and himself. He stated Mr. Walker brought up some issues previous to this. He stated on the north end of this subdivision the land is very low and will require fill. He stated this is not terrible in this situation because we don't have septic fields to contend with. He stated we have to be aware of the houses that go in have proper soil analysis prior to construction of foundations particularly to the north. He stated likewise we have concern about the hydric soils to the north. He stated he emphasis's that these are not noted as wetlands but they are soils subject to water coming closer to the surface and the property to the west largely the Gesse's is affected by this Milford soil, which is a hydric type of soil that we are always cautious around.

Mr. Mahnic stated his comment is after looking through all of this and he did review it he feels that they are not going to run more water on the Gesse property than is going there now without any development. He stated in fact the water will not be going down at the rate it is going now because it is going to be retained and it is going to be metered off with the same size pipe that you have up the road that is 12-inch. He stated this means that the pond, as you stated, will hold the water a little bit longer and it will go off at a slower rate. He stated a slower rate then what goes through at the present time. He stated you will not be adding more water. He stated you will be passing through basically, the same amount of water that is going through there now.

Mr. Detert stated he thinks that the question was that there is more water in a sense that it runs longer and that was Mr. Poparad's concern. He stated it is his concern too but he doesn't think we can all of a sudden deny something because of that fact and the fact that he doesn't think that we have any power under the ordinance to stop it.

Mr. Breitzke stated the only thing that he would recommend as part of the motion that you state that the bond has to have a 12-inch outlet and that Hampton Manor Lane, which on the preliminary plat is draining to the west and that this has to drain easterly back toward the intersection of Hampton Manor Drive than Hampton Manor Lane and keep the water in the subdivision because there is an area that drains outside and bring it all back into the detention pond.

Commissioner Harper stated it is his understanding that the Gesse property right now in a heavy rain has water standing on it from the photographs that he has seen in certain places. He asked if they farm that property.

Mr. Breitzke stated yes currently they farm it.

Commissioner Harper stated the Gesse property is west of where they are going to build this subdivision.

Mr. Breitzke stated this is correct.

Commissioner Harper asked right now is there some flaw during a heavy rain from the property where they plan to build the subdivision onto the Gesse property.

Mr. Breitzke stated yes.

Commissioner Harper asked once they pave this and put houses on this and so forth will more water end up down on the Gesse property.

Mr. Breitzke stated with the detention ponds built, probably not.

Commissioner Harper asked where will it go.

Mr. Breitzke asked where did it come from. He stated it comes out of the sky and falls to the ground.

Commissioner Harper asked Mr. Breitzke if he has calculated that there is not going to be any more water that will end up on the Gesse property after a heavy rain.

Mr. Breitzke stated we had the engineer calculate, Mr. Bengel in this case.

Commissioner Harper asked Mr. Breitzke if he did his own calculations.

Mr. Breitzke stated generally speaking that is correct. He stated he went over Mr. Bengel's or any other engineer that comes before us and they are satisfactory from that standpoint.

Mr. Detert stated when you have grassy areas it absorbs the water better than farm fields. He stated there is going to be the same water flow but it is going to hit the streets and the paved areas.

Mr. Breitzke stated it is going to be running faster through the streets and this is why we have detentions.

Mr. Detert stated now we are going to have the Gesse's who may not be able to get into their farm fields for a longer period of time in the spring because the water is coming out slowly. He stated instead of three days of puddles they are going to have ten days of puddles or six days of puddles.

Mr. Breitzke stated normally this doesn't happen.

Mr. Mahnic stated there is also the possibility that at the present time the water in a heavy rain the ponds on the Gesse property. He stated when you control the flow going out there, there is also a possibility that it will run off or be absorbed by the ground quicker because there is not going to be that much water.

Mr. Bucko asked if it is not an engineering fact that when you have grass built up between and all around these homes and everything else it is far denser than what is on plowed fields or undeveloped land. He stated so your entire rate of flow going down to this detention pond is less because of the absorption.

Mr. Breitzke stated that would be correct.

Mr. Poparad stated in terms of percentage of square feet of the entire parcel. He asked if anyone has figured out what it would be on the non-permeable surfaces.

Mr. Bengel stated your runoff coefficient, which is a composition of you figure 80% for a roof 85% for a street and if you have grass or sod you are down to .15.

Mr. Poparad asked what is the percentage of the land that is going to be covered in asphalt or shingles. He asked is it 10% of the square footage by the time you put the streets and sidewalks in.

Mr. Mahnic stated he doesn't think anyone has ever asked that question.

Mr. Breitzke stated with a one-acre lot we might look at 20% or 25% conservatively.

Mr. Poparad stated he is just not convinced that the Gesse's are not going to get more water regardless of the rate than what was historically put there.

Mr. Mahnic moved to approve Case 03-P-17 for primary plat. Mr. Bucko seconded the motion.

Discussion:

At this time, Commissioner Harper recognized Mr. Hiestand to speak.

Mr. Hiestand stated they filed with the Commission before the meeting conditions that they thought would be appropriate. He stated they thought it would be appropriate to ask the petitioners to deal with their water on their property by way of a retention pond rather than a detention pond. He stated he thinks that their provision is well known to the members of the Commission but he does appreciate Commissioner Harper recognizing him to speak.

Mr. Mahnic asked if the petitioner seen this information.

Mr. Hiestand stated they have.

Commissioner Harper asked Mr. Hiestand if he had anyone calculate the amount of water in which he figured the runoff would be.

Mr. Hiestand stated he has not but he did speak to an engineer about the coefficients that Mr. Bengel was saying that there would not be more water running off and the higher the coefficient the more water runs off as Mr. Bengel has tonight for streets, roofs and so forth. He stated he thinks that the general standard is to use like a coefficient of .3 for undeveloped property where as grass or whatever but he has not calculated how much water…they already get too much water and this is one of the reasons that we want to see the development controlled as far as keeping their water on their property because without this structure, which congregates the water and dumps it on their property as shown in the photographs, there is often too much water now on the property that belongs to the Gesse's. He stated they are asking the Commission to take this opportunity to require them to do something proactive and positive as far as keeping their water on their property and not concentrating it and dumping on the Gesse property.

Mr. Detert asked Mr. Bengel if the Gesse's were going to encounter water on their property for a longer period of time. He stated they have it now and if the volume doesn't increase, which everyone is saying and it may even decrease, but their puddles are a foot deep in the spring and lasts three days. He asked now are they going to be six-inches deep and last ten days.

Mr. Bengel stated he doesn't think that this development is going to prevent them from farming their ground in the way that they do now. He stated water sits there and over the years it could have been abbreviated by a grass water way or creating a path to the county road.

He stated if you look at the documents that they prepared and submitted there is more than sufficient fall to get the water from the east line down to the county road. He stated in his opinion, especially the way they have increased this pond he can't see that they are going to cause them any harm and their use in the ground.

Mr. Detert stated he thinks that what the petitioners are asking for is back to a retention pond and not a detention pond.

Mr. Mahnic stated that in behalf of the motion that he made why do we want to call for something that would hold the water back that normally goes through anyway. He stated it is not the petitioner's job to keep water off the neighbor's property when the water normally does go there.

Mr. Breitzke asked Mr. Mahnic to include in his motion that the outlet pipe needs to be 12-inches and also that Hampton Manor Lane runs to the east from the west property line to the intersection.

Mr. Leeth stated with regards to the latter Mr. Bengel is commenting to him that there are catch basin inlets on the west end of that extension.

Mr. Breitzke stated if that is going to drain that way then he wants a drain that goes up between lots 33 and 32 to the pond and the same will be on the subdivision property.

Mr. Leeth stated this is typically something that we will handle through the final plat.

Mr. Breitzke stated he just wants to make it understood because it has always been awkward. He stated we are usually further along with the design process and the engineer has more consideration for fill and for the other issues at hand. He stated he just wants to make it clear when this goes to final plat that these are the expectations he would have.

Commissioner Harper stated that there are two pending lawsuits that are going on because of promises made by people in the audience that didn't become part of the motion. He stated he hopes that everything be included in this motion that Mr. Breitzke thinks should be included.

The motion reads as follows:

Mr. Mahnic moved to approve Case 03-P-17 subject to the outlet pipe for the northwest pond being 12-inches and the drainage be conveyed easterly from the west line of the subdivision along Hampton Manor Lane to a low point which was suggested to be between lots 32 and 33. Mr. Bucko seconded the motion, which failed due to a lack of a majority vote:

Bucko - Yes Detert - No Harper - No
Mahnic - Yes Poparad - No Sheetz - Yes
Breitzke - Yes

This case is continued until the March 10, 2004 meeting.

Mr. Breitzke recognized Mr. Hiestand to speak.

Mr. Hiestand stated he would urge the Commission to take heed to what Mr. Thompson was saying earlier on working on these standards. He stated the State has kind of gotten ahead of us in terms of primary plat approval is more important in the process and secondary plat, which is kind of a ministerial thing. He stated he thinks that if the standards could be such that you could look more in depth at some of these issues at the primary plat.

Case 97-P-14. Petition of Yellowstone Development, Inc., 352 S. 700 W., Hebron, Indiana seeking primary plat extension for Yellowstone Subdivision to be located on the West side of CR 600 W. between CR 350 S. and CR 500 S. in Porter Township, Porter County, Indiana.

Don Bengel stated this is Yellowstone Subdivision down in Porter Township. He stated Section A has already been platted and all of the streets have been put in. He stated some of the lots have been sold and the developer wants to continue to plat so he can go on to Section B. He stated they are asking for an extension of the primary plat.

Commissioner Harper asked Mr. Thompson to explain what we are doing here.

Mr. Thompson stated in 1997 the Plan Commission approved the primary plat for this. He stated the primary plats are good for three years and this is by ordinance. He stated essentially in that three years they must come in and do a secondary plat, which they are doing this in phases. He stated there are so many lots that are approved and recorded in the office of the Recorder as a secondary plat but there are still some remaining lots that they have not come through and recorded yet or done a secondary plat approval on. He stated so in order to keep this primary plat going and active what they are asking for is another three-year extension to keep the primary plat active. He stated if they did not do this they would have to come back in and do a public hearing.

Mr. Mahnic stated this primary plat is approved presently and if we give it an extension it will go for three more years. He stated in the meantime if we change the ordinance is the primary plat grandfathered in under the old ordinance or does it have to comply with the new ordinance.

Mr. Bengel stated it is his understanding that if you just vote on the extension tonight and there hasn't been any changes that he knows of then that is the rules it goes by. He stated if they come back for another extension and there have been changes in the standards then the motion should say that they must meet any of the new standards.

Mr. Thompson stated he is going to step in on one thing. He stated if we give the extension here and we adopt the Master Plan before the three years are up and there are new rules for secondary plat approval and new construction rules for secondary plat, they will have to follow them.

Mr. Bucko stated he has no problem with this.

Mr. Bucko moved to approve a three-year extension for Case 97-P-14. Mr. Poparad seconded the motion, which carried on a unanimous roll call vote.



Public Hearing:

At this time, Mr. Breitzke read the rules of conduct for a public hearing.

Case 04-P-3. Petition of John Hall, 481 W. Division Road, Valparaiso, Indiana seeking primary plat approval for Hall's Acres Subdivision, Second Addition to be located on the North side of Division Road, between CR 450 E. and CR 575 E. in Washington Township, Porter County, Indiana. (To contain 2 lots on 3.01 acres. Property is zoned Rural Residential.)

Eric Banschbach stated he is the agent for John Hall. He stated they are requesting primary plat approval for a two lot major subdivision. He stated the two lots are east of a previously developed four lot minor subdivision as well as a two lot major subdivision. He stated this is why this two lot is a major subdivision because the four lot minor subdivision has already been accomplished through it. He stated they have been through TAC and they recommended approval. He stated there was no detention calculated for the two lots. He stated it is fairly simple subdivision. He stated there will not be any additional structures or additional roads.

No one spoke in favor of this subdivision.

No one spoke in opposition to this subdivision.

The public hearing was then closed.

Mr. Bucko stated he has no questions.

Commissioner Harper stated he has no questions.

Mr. Sheetz stated he has no questions.

Mr. Mahnic stated he has no comments.

Mr. Poparad stated he has no comments.

Mr. Detert stated he has no questions.

Mr. Breitzke stated he has no comments.

Mr. Poparad moved to approve Case 04-P-3. Mr. Mahnic seconded the motion, which carried on the following ballot vote:

Bucko - Yes Detert - Yes Harper - Yes
Mahnic - Yes Poparad - Yes Sheetz - Yes
Breitzke - Yes

Case 04-M-1. Petition of the Porter County Plan Commission, 155 Indiana Ave., Suite 304, Valparaiso, Indiana to amend Ordinance No. 97-38, Chapters 15.20 and 17.76 (Plan Commission Fees and Building Fees) Sections 15.20.010 and 17.76.010 (Fees) of the Porter County Code.

Mr. Thompson stated an item was overlooked when the original fee ordinance. He stated on the old fee ordinance under "alterations, repairs and remodels" it was 15¢ per square foot with a minimum of $25. He stated the original intent was to raise the minimum up to $40. He stated the ordinance came out stating just $40. He stated he is requesting to amend it so that way "alterations, repairs or remodels" are 15¢ per square foot and a minimum of $40. He stated also he is adding one item to it. He stated this would be under the Board of Zoning Appeals applications. He stated it is "renewals of use variances and temporary certificate of occupancy." He stated while going through the applications he asked Toni how much time she spent on them. He stated Fred is starting to go out into the field and review these. He stated there is time spent from the staff with these items and he really feels that we need to get a fee if these people are going to continue to renew these items. He stated right now we get nothing. He stated there is time spent by staff members and he felt that a fair reasonable fee was $40 for renewal cost for use variances and TCO's.

Commissioner Harper asked what do other towns charge.

Mr. Thompson stated to be honest he really hasn't seen that.

At this time, the Commission had a discussion on what the fee should be.

Mr. Detert stated he was thinking on the trailers maybe $25 or $30 and the use variance $15 per year.

Mr. Poparad stated why don't we go, and he is just going to through this number out, $20 a year for a mobile home but if it is a five year variance it is $100.

Mr. Breitzke stated why not have it as a minimum of $20 per year.

Mr. Poparad stated it is fair to the mobile home people and for the use variance whatever the number of years just multiply it by $20.

Mr. Poparad moved to approve Case 04-M-1 to amend the fee for "Alterations, Remodels and Repairs" to 25¢ per square feet with a minimum of $40 and to also include a fee for the renewal of Temporary Certificates of Occupancy and Use Variances with a fee of $20 per year. Commissioner Harper seconded the motion, which carried on the following ballot vote:

Bucko - Yes Detert - Yes Harper - Yes
Mahnic - Yes Poparad - Yes Sheetz - Yes
Breitzke - Yes

-----

Mr. Thompson stated at the last Commissioners meeting the Commissioners approved the Plan Commission to go ahead and interview consultants and make a recommendation of one consultant to them and they will then have an interview with that one consultant that the Plan Commission selects. He stated he just wants to say that we are getting interest on this.

There being no further business the meeting adjourned at 7:45 p.m.

PORTER COUNTY
PLAN COMMISSION



S/ Kevin Breitzke, President

Attest: Robert W. Thompson Jr., Executive Director/County Planner