COUNTY PLAN COMMISSION

Regular Meeting
July 9, 2003

M I N U T E S

The regular meeting of the Porter County Plan Commission was held on Wednesday, July 9, 2003 at 7:30 p.m. in the County Administrative Center, 155 Indiana Avenue, Suite 205, Valparaiso, Indiana.

Those members present were Eric Biddinger, Mike Bucko, Rick Burns, Robert Detert, Frank Mahnic, Commissioner David Burrus and Kevin Breitzke, President. Those members absent were Mike Herzog and Bob Poparad. Staff members present were Robert W. Thompson Jr., Patricia S. Gibson and Attorney Lily Schaefer.

Mr. Mahnic moved to waive the reading of the May 14, 2003 Plan Commission minutes and approve them as received in the mail. Mr. Burns seconded the motion, which carried on a unanimous voice vote.

Mr. Mahnic moved to waive the reading of the June 11, 2003 Plan Commission minutes and approve them as received in the mail. Mr. Bucko seconded the motion, which carried on a unanimous voice vote.

Pending Business:

Case 03-P-5. Petition of Aberdeen Limited Partnership, 225 Aberdeen Dr., Suite D, Valparaiso, Indiana seeking primary plat approval for Aberdeen Phase "I" to be located on Larwick Circle, between Division Road and CR 100 N. in Union Township and Center Township, Porter County, Indiana. (To contain 44 lots on 13.411 acres. Property is zoned PUD.)(con't from 6-11-03 mtg.)

Barbara Young stated she is the President of Benchmark Limited and they are the developers of Aberdeen. She stated as Kevin has indicated this matter is carried over from the last meeting because of a lack of a majority vote on the motion that was presented. She stated she would like to give a brief introduction on how this subdivision came to be. She stated Aberdeen was initially approved as a Planned Residential Development. She stated it was approved in 1994 when there wasn't a Planned Unit Development Ordinance. She stated they went through an entirely different process than the PUD. She stated in 1996 the County adopted a PUD ordinance pursuant to a State Statute, which provides two different options. She stated one option is to leave the ultimate decision authority with the County Commissioners and the second option is to leave the ultimate decision with the Plan Commission. She stated the Plan Commission and the County Commissioners in 1996, very clearly made the determination that the County Commissioners would be the final deciding Body under the PUD ordinance that they adopted. She stated when the "Links" was added to Aberdeen that was the first time they came before the Plan Commission after the PUD ordinance was adopted and a PUD ordinance was adopted that applied only to the "Links" which is the property that fronts on CR 100 N. She stated now they came in with Phase "I" they were in a situation where there were six acres of what they were proposing that was included in the original Planned Residential Development zoning and there were seven acres, which had been purchased subsequent to that had not been included in the original plan. She stated it was recommended to them that they seek a new PUD for the entire 13 acres and treat that as a separate phase with its own PUD ordinance, which they did. She stated Ordinance No. 03-01 rezoned the 13 acres to PUD and it did so by a unanimous vote by the County Commissioners. She stated they subsequently came back to the Plan Commission with their plan and the Plan Commission reviewed it and forwarded the second PUD ordinance, which is Ordinance No. 03-03, which is the ordinance that actually sets the development standards. She stated when this Body forwarded that development standard ordinance to the County Commissioners it approved most of the standards. She stated it did not recommend the lot size standards. She stated it went to the County Commissioners with a favorable recommendation on all issues other than lot size. She stated when it went to the County Commissioners they over ruled the Plan Commission on the lot size issue and adopted Ordinance 03-03 by unanimous vote of the County Commissioners. She stated this ordinance pursuant to Indiana Code 36-7-4-15.10 included the primary plat, which is the identical one that is before the Commission this evening. She stated on that primary plat listed by lot are all of the lot area variances and the lot width variances in pursuant to State Statute it is appropriate that the ordinance can do that through written text or through a plan or through any combination of those two. She stated once the ordinance was adopted it is not the Plan Commission's responsibility to determine the validity of the ordinance, but it is the Plan Commission's responsibility to see that the primary plat that is presented after the ordinance is adopted is in conformance with the PUD ordinance and that it is in conformance with the subdivision control ordinance. She stated they are before the Commission tonight with their primary plat, which they believe is in full compliance with both the PUD ordinance 03-03 that sets forth the development standards as well as in full conformance with the subdivision control ordinance. She stated they have been before TAC and they come to the Commission with a favorable recommendation from TAC. She stated it comes to the Commission with a favorable recommendation from the County Highway Engineer and she thinks that it is entirely appropriate that the Plan Commission would undertake it's administrative responsibility and approve the primary plat.

Mr. Mahnic recognized Mark Thiros to speak.

Mark Thiros stated there are a few people here tonight that are against this proposal. He asked those that are against this proposal to please raise their hand. He stated they are back to the same argument regarding this ordinance and what was passed by the Commissioners and what legally you can or cannot do as a Plan Commission. He stated we discussed it at length at the last meeting that the variance from 80 foot wide lots that is not specified in the written text that was submitted by Benchmark or Valenti or whoever prepared that document that was approved by the Commissioners. He stated that variance is simply not there. He stated what they are trying to say is that they put it on the drawing. He stated the problem is again that the drawing was complied by the County's own ordinance, the drawing must comply with the written text. He stated the variance request for lots less then 80-foot wide simply is not in the text. He stated therefore the drawing does not comply with the written text that was approved by the Commissioners. He stated therefore to now approve this with lots that are less than 80-feet wide they think is simply improper. He stated this is your job as a Plan Commission as Ms. Young stated a while ago, does it comply with the ordinance or not. He stated she is right when she quotes State Statute that says the ordinance can be by written document, site improvement plan or combination of both. He stated that is clearly in the State Statute. He stated the State refers back to the local governing body to determine on how that is to be done. He stated the County's ordinance says it is to be a combination of both. He stated they are supposed to have a written plan, which they have submitted and they are suppose to have a drawing. He stated there is no dispute about that. He stated to argue now that whatever they omitted from the written text can be somehow covered by the drawing is improper and it is against the County's ordinance. He stated they are here as concerned citizens and constituents from Aberdeen to tell you that we want you to follow your own law. He stated what is the point of having an ordinance regarding these types of developments if you are not going to follow them. He asked why did she bother to write any variances at all in the written text. He stated she could have left all four items blank. He stated by her own rational she would not have to list any variances in the written portion. He stated this is simply not proper. He stated when this issue first came before this Commission there was a 6-1 recommendation against it. He stated this was back in November of last year. He stated six of you said no to this. He stated it went to the Commissioners and Larry Sheets was back at that meeting and he said to us, "Look, you guys should want the seven acres to come in and be part of Aberdeen that way you will have some control on what goes in there." He stated they don't have control. He stated they don't have the power to exercise control over their POA because it is still in the hands of Benchmark. He stated it is not going to be transferred until the end of this year. He stated they are here tonight to ask the Commission to exercise the control for them. He stated they wouldn't be here otherwise. He stated if they could control this they would not be here. He stated the other thing that you have at your disposal is to reject it. He stated you don't have to approve this. He stated you need five votes to say no to it and then it is done. He stated next year when they have the POA at their control maybe they could revisit it then. He stated they are asking the Commission tonight to do the right thing and to listen to them and to what they have to say and what their concerns are about this whole development and how it has been brought forth. He stated they are asking the Commission to vote no and reject this proposal.

Commissioner Burrus stated he has a couple of comments. He stated first he thinks that Ms. Young's comments with respect to the summary of the action that the Commissioner's took are correct. He stated the second thing is with respect to the comment about the interpretation of the ordinance that we have to follow, he thinks that there is a possible interpretation difference. He stated in his own understanding of the ordinance whereby the County requires both a written and a drawing as part of the documentation, he thinks that those could be construed to be complimentary both they don't need to be repetitious or duplicative. He stated in his own view of the requirements that we have to follow he thinks the drawing should compliment the written portion, the text, but he doesn't see a need in his mind for everything to be duplicated.

Mr. Bucko stated he has nothing to add.

Mr. Mahnic stated the way he reads this, and Ms. Young knows he doesn't like the way PUD's are interpreted. He stated he thinks that it gives too big of a latitude to the developer to infringe on orderly growth of an area. He stated he has in front of him the ordinance that Benchmark presented to the Commissioners, 03-03, and in here it says, "The following variances from the development standards in Section 17.24.030 paragraph (a) through (i) inclusive of Title 17 Chapter 17.24 of the Porter County Code entitled Planned Unit Development, shall apply for front yard setback, side yard setback, rear yard setback, minimum lot size and then blank. He stated there is nothing about width. He stated in our ordinance it states, "Variances from development requirements, in establishing a particular PUD District the county legislative body, which are the County Commissioners, shall have the authority to grant variances from any of the development requirements set forth in this chapter as a Legislative Body shall deem appropriate upon considering the health, the safety, the convenience." He stated when he says convenience this is for the convenience of everybody and not just the developer but for you also. He stated also, "for the welfare, the harmonious development of the proposed PUD and the surrounding community." He stated he felt that this was not done. He stated it also states, "provided that any such variances shall be specifically set for forth in a PUD district ordinance." He stated it did not meet that ordinance.

Mr. Burns stated he has no comment.

Mr. Detert stated he thinks that the Commission pretty much hashed this over enough times and we need to vote.

Mr. Biddinger stated he has nothing to add.

Mr. Breitzke stated he agrees with Mr. Detert and it is time to vote.

Mr. Mahnic stated he would like to put this in the minutes of the meeting. He stated this was presented to him tonight, which is a petition identical to what was given to the Commissioners at their meeting. At this time, Mr. Mahnic submitted the petition to be put in the Aberdeen file.

Commissioner Burrus moved to approve Case 03-P-5. Mr. Bucko seconded the motion, which carried on the following ballot vote:

Biddinger - Yes Bucko - Yes Burns - Yes
Detert - Yes Mahnic - No Burrus - Yes
Breitzke - Yes

Case 03-FP-11. Petition of Jeff Ashcraft, 292 W. SR 8, Hebron, Indiana seeking a replat of Brandt's Subdivision to be located on the South side of SR 8 between CR 250 W. and CR 350 W. in Boone Township, Porter County, Indiana.

Bill Rensberger stated he is here this evening representing


Jeff Ashcraft. He stated this major subdivision with two lots was approved a couple of years ago. He stated lot 1 originally looked like this. He stated now Mr. Ashcraft who owns lot 2 has just purchased lot 1. He stated he wants to make lot 1 look differently then what it does now. He stated he wants to make it look like it does here. He stated he wants to shorten it up some. He stated he is not sure whether he is planning on living in the house that is there now or sell it. He stated they are asking for a replat. He stated there is a variance that he will need to request 155-foot width for lot 1 rather than a 160-foot width. He stated this is so he can keep the two garages on lot 2.

Mr. Bucko stated he has no questions.

Commissioner Burrus stated he has no questions at this time.

Mr. Mahnic stated there were a number of things that TAC recommended and one is a variance and he doesn't see a problem with that. He stated there is a recommendation that there be no jog in the east line of lot 1. He asked Mr. Rensberger if he was inclined to agree to that.

Mr. Rensberger stated there use to be 160 feet and then jog over. He stated they are seeking a variance for 155 foot to keep a straight line.

Mr. Detert stated he has no comments.

Mr. Biddinger stated it looks good.

Mr. Burns stated he has no problem.

Mr. Breitzke stated he is on TAC and they made these recommendations.

Mr. Burns moved to approve Case 03-FP-11. Mr. Detert seconded the motion, which carried on a unanimous voice vote.

Henry Morphis, Project Manager for Superior Environmental Remediation, Inc., asking for a review of a remediation shed to house equipment to be located at 526 W. U.S. Hwy 30, Union Township, Porter County, Indiana.

Mr. Breitzke stated he doesn't believe the Commission needs to make any motions tonight on the following review. He stated Mr. Morphis is obligated to tell the Commission what is going on to the changes at the gas station site by our own ordinance.

Mr. Morphis stated this is a Hop N Stop located on U.S. Hwy 30 at CR 500 W. He stated he has letters for the Commission that they can keep and review. He stated there is also a map that explains where the contamination has taken place. He stated it has leached approximately 345 feet to the northeast towards a house. He stated there is some slight contamination MTVB, which is an additive to gasoline. He stated there is not a whole lot in there but it does indicate that it is moving that way. He stated it is a contamination of benzene and methyl benzene. He stated some of the other bad chemicals that are in the water are approximately 50 to 100 feet away from the residence and they are trying to catch it before it gets there. He stated this all started in 1990 when the gas station recognized that they had a leak in their tanks. He stated they did pull them out and replace them in 1990. He stated they have been monitoring the site since about 1990 for contamination. He stated they have isolated the plume and followed the paper work for the State for the cap for the Correction Action Plan. He stated this outlines the contamination and what they intend to do. He stated what they are doing is putting in an underground system of piping and wells which draws up the contaminated water, filters it through a carbon filter and then discharges it. He stated their discharge goes through NPDS, which is a National Pollution Discharge Systems permit. He stated they have to test their discharge that they are discharging on a daily basis, then weekly and then monthly. He stated that they also got an air permit because they do suck the vapors out of the ground. He stated what that does is allows them to bring in the oxygen which helps the bacteria grow and eat contaminates. He stated they filter that through the carbon again and that is discharged in the atmosphere and they have an Indiana State Air permit that they are applying for on that. He stated they will be building in a low-lying area and they don't meet the 60-feet setback and it is also the location of the business's septic field. He stated they went through TAC and the Health Department said that they would not want them to build on top of the septic field. He stated the only logical place to build this is on the northwest side of the building. He stated what that would do is put them at a 40-foot setback instead of a 60-foot. He stated it is a 20-foot by 20-foot structure built in the fashion of a pole barn. He stated it is about 12 feet high. He stated the approximate time it would be on the site would be two to three years. He stated their estimated data for clean up is about 10 months and pumping 2.5 million gallons of water. He stated it depends on how long it takes them to pump 2.5 million gallons of water and continuously testing it.


Mr. Bucko asked if this impacts the setbacks on U.S. Hwy 30.

Mr. Thompson stated they are going to have to before the Board of Zoning Appeals for a variance on that.

Mr. Burns stated the only concerns that he would have is the vapors.

Mr. Morphis stated that at the levels they are they would not be flammable. He stated they have coolers on their systems.

Mr. Burns asked if there was some type of monitoring system.

Mr. Morphis stated yes and it is all computerized. He stated they monitor the pressures and the temperatures.

Mr. Burns asked if the fire department was involved in this at all.

Mr. Morphis stated he did not feel that they needed to be involved. He stated there is 20 by 20 equipment shed. He stated it will be about 40-feet from the existing structure and 70-feet from the pumps and tanks. He stated there is no life hazard inside the building. He stated they do everything they can to make it easy for the fire department. He stated he does let the fire department know when the project is done and explain what is going on there.

Mr. Biddinger stated he has no questions.

Mr. Detert stated this will be heard by the BZA in August.

Mr. Mahnic stated he thinks that it is very commendable that you people do this.

Commissioner Burrus stated he would say the same thing. He stated he would like to expand on it slightly. He stated while the contaminate is different the problem is similar to what the Valparaiso Water Department is experiencing with well water contamination at the Porter County Airport. He stated the significant of cleaning aquifers is extremely high. He stated as Mr. Mahnic said you are to be commended on the work you are doing in that effort.

Case 03-PUD-3.Petition of Accent Homes, Inc. & New Crown Development, Inc., c/o Todd Etzler Burke, Costanza & Cuppy LLP, 57 Franklin Street, Ste 203, Valparaiso, Indiana for a proposed amendment to the Master Plan to rezone a parcel of land from R-1, Single Family Residential to PUD, Planned Unit Development to be located on the Southwest corner of McCool Road and CR 750 N. in Portage Township, Porter County, Indiana. (con't from 6-9-03. Public hearing is closed.)

Todd Etzler stated he is here with John Kremke who is the engineer for this project. He stated last month they presented some changes to their concept on this project and they suggested and favorably received in payment of lieu of green space of $60000. He stated the issue that came up was a perpetual maintenance fund for after these improvements by the three organizations had taken place and how was it going to be maintained. He stated they went back and did some thinking about this and have worked out a process by which as the project is developed and the lots are sold $100 from each lot sale will be contributed to a fund. He stated in the end this would be about $40,000. He stated that fund will then fund an annuity so that for a period of 15 years from the funding of that fund it will pay out money to the three organizations equally to maintain whatever improvements they have to be done. He stated he had a friend do some calculations on the annuity and if it is done on a monthly payment payout starting five years after the project starts will be about $262 a month. He stated they will probably change that so it is not a monthly payout but an annual payout increased as the amount of money is earned and then paid out annually instead of monthly to each of these organizations. He stated that amount will then continue and it is a guaranteed payment each year for fifteen years. He stated it will be twenty years from the time the project first starts that this fund will be available. He stated it doesn't start payout until five years after the project has started. He stated they think that by that time there will be a good amount of money and a good resource to use for maintenance.

Mr. Biddinger stated he has no comments.

Mr. Burns stated he still would like to see green space in the development. He stated this is what the Commission has been requiring from other developers. He stated he thinks that it is too dense and it should have some green space.

Mr. Bucko stated in reference to their funding mechanism this would be paid somewhat on an annual basis to each of the entities. He stated one will be to the Township Trustee and what are the other two.



Mr. Etzler stated one is the South Haven Little League and the South Haven Boys and Girls Club each of which has recreational facilities in the area of this parcel and this is the reason that they are doing cash instead of a set aside.

Mr. Bucko stated he can see some opportunity here if the three organizations may get together and use things as combined and matching funds for even bigger and better things.

Commissioner Burrus stated in regards to the sequence of events on the structure of the annuity, they said the total amount to be paid in would be committed at what point in time.

Mr. Etzler stated they will fund the annuity hopefully at seven years or earlier of the seven years or when the last lot is sold. He stated they have seven years to build that up.

Commissioner Burrus stated the worse case scenario the economy turns south and they are not able to complete the development would there be a commitment to follow through at the end of seven years with this annuity.

Mr. Etzler stated they will fund with the money that exists. He stated it is $100 per lot as sold.

Commissioner Burrus stated the other concern that comes to his mind maybe for the benefit of the Commission would be that we are talking about some entity's receiving these funds that may or may retain their property for recreational purposes forever. He stated he thinks that the proposal makes good sense but there is some risk attached.

Mr. Etzler stated that they can provide a document setting up that if they one of these entities disband, just like their charter states their assets must be contributed to another nonprofit organization. He stated they could provide that if that organization is no longer in existence that the payment should be divided equally between the remaining two or go to a third entity with similar uses.

Commissioner Burrus stated the point he was making wasn't so much on how the funds were to be distributed in that instance as to the availability of a guarantee for recreational space.

Mr. Mahnic stated he wasn't aware that we were going to hear this case today so he has to try to recall a couple of things. He stated this is an R-1 and you are requesting to be rezoned to a PUD. He stated if you develop this as an R-1 you would have approximately 448 homes versus 479 if you get a PUD. He stated to him it is almost identical to what you have. He stated last month he made a statement of why don't you develop this as an R-1. He stated he believes the response was that the developer wasn't interested in that. He stated he can only feel that you are interested in crowding in another 30 homes in there and you are going to rely on South Haven and a couple other areas around there for their recreation facilities. He stated you will be giving them money to enhance their facility. He stated you are going to be putting in a lot of kids into this area here and it is a crowded area already. He stated your aerial map was appreciated because it kind of gives him an idea because we are going to have a very, very dense area in our county and we are going to strap our police force and volunteer fire department. He stated the other thing is he doesn't see any thing here to tell him how many of these will be variances for lot width, lot size etc. He stated he would like to see that before it goes to the Commissioners whether we approve it or don't approve it.

Mr. Detert stated he commented before that he has some knowledge of the developer and his building practices. He stated what he has seen in the past and he hopes that they are still good; this developer builds a pretty decent starter home. He stated he gets a little concerned about small lots but there seems to be a market for them. He stated he is not that knowledgeable about the market but they do seem to be selling. He stated he is a little concerned about the agreement if something would happen to the economy then this could well be half funded or a third funded if the lots don't sell because it is going to be expired in fifteen years. He stated if the economy goes south and you don't sell the lots then whatever money is in there will be distributed but there will be no more going into the fund because the fifteen years is expired. He asked if this is correct.

Mr. Etzler stated it would be seven years because it was funded at that time.

Mr. Detert stated his point is that there is some point where funding could only be a portion of what you are suggesting because things went sour.

Mr. Biddinger stated under the ordinance and this is 17.24.010 under definitions it states that a "Planned Unit Development means a development of an area of land as a single development scheme which combines a mixture of uses including residential, business, professional and/or light industrial, and which may not correspond to the developmental standards otherwise required for such uses by other provisions of the Porter County Zoning Ordinance such as lot size, bulk, building or dwelling type, density, lot acreage or open space requirements." He stated he has a tough time with this because he thinks that it is a very fringe use of the PUD ordinance. He stated there just isn't enough difference between this and an R-1 or other things that we can accomplish in other ways within our ordinance. He stated he doesn't see enough advantages to warrant the use of the PUD ordinance in this case. He stated this does include the green space issue as well as the density issue.

Mr. Breitzke stated he was hoping that there would be more involved but at least it is a start. He stated he agrees with Mr. Bucko. He stated he thinks that you need flexibility in any trust fund to make sure it is appropriately applied and that individuals regard flexibility to leverage the funds if they need to be. He stated it is a large amount but not that large of an amount to be considered and he does appreciate them taking the effort to set up something like this. He stated it is unique and often trying to put together a concept. He stated it would be nice to have some green space in there but that adds another burden onto the trustee and the services and the funds that they have available on who is going to mow and trim trees. He stated if there is a shelter how do they maintain that, pay insurance etc. He stated the total solution is not just having an internal park, although he would like to see some effort, a tree planting effort or some kind of regard to as far as getting a number of trees or some kind of landscaping incorporated into the plan. He stated he thinks that they discussed something along McCool Road previously to face the houses internally and maybe do some planting along the outside, but it would also be very fresh to commit to planting internally in the development as well.

Mr. Etzler stated that it appears that maybe this concept can be used later on but it is not something that is something that can be used for this project. He stated his client is willing to go back and if you want the green space they will set aside some green space.

Mr. Mahnic stated he doesn't want to rule against this but he doesn't want to rule for it at the present time. He stated he would like to see more information. He stated he would like to see the financial aspect of this in writing from Mr. Etzler. He stated he would like to consider continuing this until next month so that we have a real good chance on taking a look at this.

Mr. Etzler stated they would be willing to continue this for another month.


Mr. Mahnic stated he would like to see that.

Mr. Bucko stated he wants to be fair with these individuals coming in here. He stated when they first came in here there was a discussion about having green space and these kinds of things. He stated you made mention of it that if the green space is there and there are facilities put there and there is nothing there to maintain them it becomes a township burden. He stated it then just deteriorates. He stated he thinks that we have to give some consideration to the fact that there is a good idea in the making here that is not only going to serve some of the purposes of the community that they are going to build but it is going to give opportunity and exposure and access to the community around it also. He stated he interprets what Eric read there as to say a combination of many different things. He stated this is in his mind a type of a combination of what the ordinance says should be considered and he doesn't think that we should push that out.

Mr. Detert stated he is still a little uncomfortable with the agreement. He stated he doesn't see any problems with trading off green space for paying for other amenities and serve the community. He stated this is the third meeting that they have been to and in order to move this along and he feels confident that the Commissioners would work that agreement out and he recommends that it be more favorable then what they proposed so that if they do go under there would be at least a minimum guarantee.

Commissioner Burrus stated the only observation that he has that might be appropriate is that he is concerned that the gentleman here might be receiving two different signals from the Commission. He stated he thinks that we need to make sure that they know which concept to pursue. He stated he thinks that this kind of decision however reached would be appropriate. He asked do they need to refine the financial agreement or do they need to go back in and reconfigure layout for green space.

Mr. Breitzke stated would it be acceptable to figure out some kind of landscaping or tree planting scheme that is more of a private issue but also to have the financial commitments.

Mr. Biddinger stated he is not against the agreement part. He stated he thinks that it is innovative and it is the type of thing that we need to look at in planning and zoning issues.

Mr. Breitzke stated he likes the idea that it is not a private park or a private effort. He stated it is going to be something for the community at large. He stated these are the facilities that are going to be used at large.

Mr. Detert stated if we merely vote to continue this they go back and they don't really know what the feeling of the Commission is. He stated he feels the contribution is adequate but we need to direct them in some way.

Commissioner Burrus stated he would like to echo the comment down here as well. He stated he has no problem with this agreement concept. He stated he thinks that if we could take the time between this meeting and next through the continuation request to fine tune or refine that concept a little further to look at some of the contingency type risk that might be there he thinks that the fundamental concept is there.

Mr. Etzler stated they will put together two types of scenarios explaining the types that can happen. He stated they will put together some language for contingencies for this to continue even if these three entities are no longer around. He stated they will come out with a funding mechanism so they can be funded.

Mr. Mahnic moved to continue Case 03-PUD-3 to the August 13, 2003 Plan Commission meeting so that it can be fine tuned and also that the Commission members receive the information at least ten (10) days prior to the meeting. Mr. Detert seconded the motion, which carried on a unanimous roll call vote.

Public Hearing:

At this time, Mr. Breitzke read the rules of conduct for a public hearing.

Case 03-P-10. Petition of John & Gertrude Harrison, 367 East Tratebas Road, Valparaiso, Indiana seeking primary plat approval for Woodridge Hills Subdivision to be located on the Northeast corner of CR 350 E. and Tratebas Road in Jackson Township, Porter County, Indiana. (To contain 21 lots on 62± acres. Property is zoned RR.)

John Kremke stated this property is located at the Northeast corner of CR 350 E. and Tratebas Road. He stated it is a very unique piece of property. He stated on the 60 acres there is over 100 feet of elevation difference on the property. He stated the northern portion of the property was part of a borrow pit or a gravel when the Toll Road was constructed. He stated since that time it has grown up with vegetation and trees. He stated it is a very nice ravine and deep area. He stated the design takes great advantage of that great natural feature. He stated in fact the lots wrap around the ravine area. He stated of the 21 lots all the lots front internally but there are two that front on the county road. He stated septic absorption is excellent on the site. He stated there are actually some of the lots that qualify for smaller lot areas then the one-acre requirement. He stated all of the lots are well over an acre in size. He stated they met with the County Drainage Board and reached an agreement with them as to what portion of this if any is going to be a regulated drain. He stated this plat actually meets the ordinance and there are no variances requested.

No one spoke in favor of this petition.

Fred Cashner stated he lives at 371 E. Tratebas Road. He stated he has a little bit of a problem because his property is the one marked "exempted." He stated this subdivision totally encompasses him and puts a road down one side of his property. He stated a road right next to his property is not something he would like to see. He stated he understands that Mr. Harrison owns the land and he can do what he wants with it but he thinks that it is going to bring grief for himself and his family. He stated he would like to see some type of barrier between his property and the road. He stated he doesn't know what they intend to do with the property on the west side.

Kristine Politano stated she lives at 886 N. 350 E. She stated she really doesn't have any questions. She stated they moved into this area from the city because it was a peaceful area. She stated they really don't want a subdivision across the street from them. She stated there is a lot of wildlife there that comes into their yard.

John Kremke stated all of us wish that our neighbor's yards were ours but this just isn't the case, as we all know. He stated as for the road and the traffic there are two roads in the development simply because it is for better traffic patterns and it is suggested in the ordinance by the limit on cul-de-sac rights and walkways to provide more than one entrance into a site. He stated this is why this side is there. He stated in fact in order to limit the closeness of exits on one county road there is an exit on each county road and this is good traffic planning. He stated there is a strip of property that is a little bit over 70-feet wide where the road comes out onto Tratebas. He stated the road is as far east as it possibly can be and it provides more green space between the road and Mr. Cashner's property.



Mr. Cashner stated he understands that this meets the requirements and he doesn't have a problem with that. He stated what he is asking is that they get some type of natural barrier between his property and the road so that he doesn't have to deal with the cars going down the road all the time. He stated this is his biggest concern.

At this time, Mr. Thompson read a letter from Dean Carl Johnson, 370 East Tratebas Road. The letter is in the primary plat file.

Mr. Kremke stated there will be a natural barrier along the road between the road and Mr. Cashner's property. He stated the entrances will be located on Tratebas and CR 350 E. He stated the lots range in anywhere from a 11/4 acres on up to 21/2 acres in size. He stated there will most likely be covenants. He stated all the utilities are underground ground. He stated Mr. Harrison's house will remain and there is a three and a half acre outlot created around it. He stated in regards to the construction traffic that may do damage to Tratebas Road and CR 350 East. He stated there are two mechanisms to that. He stated one is the road bond that the construction people put in place with the County Highway. He stated the other mechanism is the road agreement fee and that gets paid on a per lot basis. He stated those are the two methods for repair. He stated the roads will have curbs but not sewers. He stated it will be private well and private septic but it will all be curb with storm drainage inlets and pipes. He stated the entrances will not be gated. He stated concerning the price range of the houses he is not privy to answer that and it is not the Commission's issue either.

Mr. Cashner asked if Mr. Kremke could address the covenants.

Dean Johnson stated he lives at 370 E. Tratebas. He asked if the entrances will be lighted.

Mr. Kremke stated that there will be covenants. He stated at this point he doesn't know whether the entrances will be lighted.

The public hearing was then closed.

Commissioner Burrus stated he has no questions or comments at this time.




Mr. Mahnic stated at the TAC meeting there were a number of items to be done. He stated it states that these items are to be satisfied by the time of the public hearing at the Plan Commission and if not complete the engineer is to ask for a continuance. He stated they are the Health Department letter.

Mr. Kremke stated they have that.

Mr. Mahnic stated also the road agreement.

Mr. Kremke stated it has been signed and returned.

Mr. Mahnic stated also the Drainage Board approval.

Mr. Kremke stated they have been there.

Mr. Mahnic stated also try to eliminate the roller coaster affect on the roads.

Mr. Kremke stated this has been done.

Mr. Mahnic stated that he sees no problem with this.

Mr. Detert stated he has no problems with this.

Mr. Bucko stated he has no problems.

Mr. Burns stated he has no problems with this but there are a couple of issues with the screening of pine trees or whatever they are going to install. He stated he thinks that they need to be identified as to what type of screening and how much.

Mr. Kremke stated they made a commitment to do this when they come back for final plat.

Mr. Burns stated the other issue is the road that is going to the existing property. He asked how is this going to affect the building line. He stated there was an issue a couple of months ago where there was a subdivision that was put in after the fact and there was an existing home there. He stated it affected the side yard building line.

Mr. Kremke stated he has a good solution for that and it also solves the solution for the landscaping in a public right-of-way. He stated this is that the right-of-way is larger than it needs to be. He stated it is over 70-feet wide. He stated they can place an outlot next to this or a portion of the lot to the north that is ten to fifteen feet wide and then landscape it and maintain the setback all at the same time. He stated they could show this on the final plat.

Mr. Burns stated that this makes sense.

Commissioner Burrus stated that this does solve another problem and that is anything that might be considered an obstruction on right-of-way there is a visibility concern. He stated that this recommendation sounds like a good compromise to him.

Mr. Biddinger stated he thinks that this is a unique use and unique plan on this rather tough use of this property. He stated he commends you on the work you put into this.

Mr. Breitzke stated he would like to reiterate what Commissioner Burrus said. He stated as much as we like to work with them to screen it as an engineer he wants to make sure we are not blocking sight distances and looking over the best interest to the public health, safety and welfare.

Mr. Mahnic moved to approve Case 03-P-10 contingent on the screening. Mr. Detert seconded the motion, which carried on the following ballot vote:

Biddinger - Yes Bucko - Yes Burns - Yes
Detert - Yes Mahnic - Yes Burrus - Yes
Breitzke - Yes

Case 03-P-2. Petition of Ron Lowe, c/o Todd Leeth, Hoeppner, Wagner & Evans, 103 Lincolnway, Valparaiso, Indiana seeking primary plat approval for Prairie Crossing Subdivision to be located on the Southwest corner of CR 500 W. and CR 100 S. in Porter Township, Porter County, Indiana. (To contain 191 lots on 126.1 acres. Property is zoned R-1.)

William Wagner stated he is an attorney here in Valparaiso, Indiana. He stated he is representing the developer of Prairie Crossing. He stated he is joined here this evening by Ronald Lowe who is the developer and has a sister corporation for the building in the subdivision. He stated also Mr. Bill Arden who is the engineer on the project and he is with McMahon and Associates. He stated the project is on a parcel of real estate in Porter Township that is zoned R-1. He stated on the north boundary is CR 100 S., the old Cheasapeak and Ohio Railroad right-of-way, which is not used, cuts across and then the east boundary is CR 500 W. He stated we are looking at 126 acres of which they propose to develop 191 lots. He stated this is 1.51 lots per gross acre. He stated the lots will be vary in size from 14,000 square feet, which is the majority of the lots, and go all the way up to 78,000 square feet. He stated there are larger lots along the north part and in the cul-de-sacs you end up getting larger lots too. He stated this area in here are the 14,000 square foot lots and those meet the standards of the ordinance. He stated the accessed property is off CR 100 S. He stated in this area there will only be four lots and those four lots will share two driveways. He stated there will be two accesses for four lots out on CR 100 S. He stated on CR 500 W. once again there are two access points two streets coming out and those will carry the bulk of the traffic from the development. He stated along each of the roads they have a five-foot no access easement so that when the construction occurs there will not be any access at the time of construction or the future from any of these lots directly onto the county road. He stated they will all come out to the county road off of these two entrances with the exception of this area here where there will be two driveways. He stated these two access's will have acceleration and deceleration lanes as well as a passing blister on the east side of the roadway. He stated the drainage is generally to the south and to the west. He stated this area that is delineated here at the dotted line is a wetlands delineation. He stated that area is being protected by three common areas here in which there will be constructed detention ponds, which will also act as siltation traps. He stated the water from this area flows into here and it cleans up to a certain extent and then comes into the wetlands area. He stated this will sheet off from the north and this property down here will come down into a common area here where there will be a retention pond. He stated that this land now has sheet runoff to the south. He stated this will be stopped because they will come through here with a 36-inch pipe that will take care of the water in this common area. He stated also there will be a drainage swale. He stated none of the water that currently flows this way will flow across that land but get into the swale and be deposited in Ludington Ditch. He stated Ludington Ditch drains this property presently and also drains Lake Eliza. He stated it comes down this boundary across here and exits to the south in a controlled drain. He stated the drainage in this development will be handled by a regulated county drain. He stated what that means is the landowners here will pay an assessment with their taxes into the drainage fund. He stated that fund will be used to maintain the drainage structure in the development. He stated if there is a problem for example, the siltation pond get filled up the county has the funds to come in a clean out the siltation pond. He stated if there is a problem with any of the drainage here then the money from the regulated drain is available to take care of those problems. He stated the treatment of the sewage is through a sanitary sewer system that ties into Lake Eliza Conservancy District. He stated the Lake Eliza Conservancy District does not treat solids so each home will have a separate septic tank. He stated the affluent from those septic tanks will flow into Lake Eliza's system and be handled there. He stated once again in a Conservancy district there is an assessment placed on your taxes so every year these people will pay their Lake Eliza assessment and that assessment will then pay for the maintenance of those lines as well as for the cost of pumping the solids from the tanks. He stated this whole issue of the surface water drainage and the issue of how do we handle the sanitary sewage will be paid in advance by the owners of this property and the money will always be there to take care of those needs. He stated water to the development will be by private wells. He stated everyone will have their own private well. He stated TAC had a number of things that they listed when they gave the report. He stated one thing that they listed which they are not inclined to do, is a request for sidewalks. He stated as you know the ordinance requires sidewalks in a development that has a density of 2 or more lots per acre. He stated they are at 1.51 so they are not required under the terms of the ordinance to have sidewalks in the development and the developer elects not to have those. He stated the plat itself ties with the subdivision control ordinance standards. He stated it has come through TAC review. He stated they have submitted to the office the things requested at the TAC review with the exception of the sidewalk issue. He stated the plat is now ready for the Commission's approval.

No one spoke in favor of this petition.

David Vandenburgh stated he lives at 131 S. 580 W. He stated his concern is with all these homes on individual wells. He asked what is this going to do with his water table and the water table surrounding them. He stated there has been nearby developments like this and they went completely dry. He stated one development down the road in Lake County had to get water from Lake Michigan. He stated at the last meeting he was at he questioned whether or not the Indiana Department of Environmental Management has approved Lake Eliza Conservancy District accepting this affluent. He stated at that meeting it was hadn't been accepted and he doesn't know if it has been accepted yet. He asked if the owner would consider donating the entire 129 acres as a wildlife development and forget the whole thing. He asked what is this going to do with the traffic, the fire district which is Lake Eliza, the school district.

Vicky Ebert stated she lives at 440 Wessex Road in Valparaiso, but they own 204 acres directly south of the development. She stated she and her husband are concerned with trespassers.

Tom Kleban stated he lives at 143 S. 500 W. He asked if they contacted a hydro geologist concerning the water. He stated he asked the same question before. He stated he never received an answer. He stated when this came before TAC where were the Highway Department people. He stated this is a designated by bicycle route. He stated the County put that sign up there and now you want to put in another 500 homes and if he can come up to here we are looking at a passing blister here. He stated this is his driveway. He asked if this blister was going to come right into his driveway. He asked if this was going to be a passing lane right in front of his house. He asked where is the safety issue. He stated his little girl stands out there and catches the school bus and cars are going to be passing each other. He stated as far as the environmental impact of it all the liquids get pumped into Ludington Ditch. He stated what he would like to see 5 years from now who is going to be monitoring what kind of discharge comes out of there.

Kathy Kleban stated she lives at 143 S. 500 W. She stated concerning the children crossing CR 500 W. to get on the school bus in the morning, if the bus is stopped and the children are crossing CR 500 W. are the people coming out of this subdivision across the street pulling out, going to see these children coming across to get on the bus the other way. She stated there is no way. She stated there are kids in the morning that are racing down CR 500 W. to the other end passing the school buses. She stated her daughters both cross CR 500 W. in the morning and after school every day. She stated there have been times when the cars pass the busses. She stated they have written down the license plate number and the same car is doing the same thing. She stated one day she wrote down the license plate number and it happened to be the principle of Boone Grove Elementary doing this. She asked if the children are that safe on CR 500 W. to get on the bus.

Carol Vandenburgh stated she lives at 131 S. 580 W. She stated she would like to have a written paper stating that if her well goes dry that subdivision is going to pay for that water that isn't there. She stated this way she will have something that shows that they are going to pay for her well and her water coming from another area. She asked who is going to bring in that water when the wells go dry.

Neil Boehnke stated he lives at 576 W. 100 S. He stated they said something about a percentage of 1.5 and you didn't exceed the 2. He asked if that included the wetlands. He asked if they are computing on the total acreage or just the non usable.

Mr. Wagner stated this is calculated under the terms of the ordinance on gross acreage. He stated it does include the wetlands and all of the land that is not developed with homes. He stated it is not a percentage. He stated it is how many units there are per gross acre. He stated they have 1.51 and the ordinance requires that sidewalks be put in when it is 2 per gross acre. He stated the question concerning the passing blister this will be constructed in the existing right-of-way of the county road. He stated if your driveway is across from where it will be constructed it will then be at your driveway. He stated the passing blister will occur across from these entrances. He stated those are a matter of public safety and this is why they are requiring them to put these in. He stated obviously they cost them money. He stated they are willing to spend the money in the name of safety. He stated please don't be angry with them because they are putting them in. He stated they would rather not spend the money, but they are because they are required to do it and it is a matter of public safety. He stated the question concerning water, the water for these wells comes from the Valparaiso Moraine Aquifer. He stated this aquifer is used by cities in this area who pump thousands of gallons out of that aquifer daily. He stated the average household use is 310 gallons per day. He stated this calculates down to .21 gallons per minute. He stated there are 191 lots so they are pumping, perhaps, at the rate of 40 gallons per minute. He stated if this land were developed as farm ground and someone were to put in an irrigation field the irrigation pumps would pump between 400 and 800 gallons per minute. He stated in other words 10 times what they are talking about at the minimum for agricultural irrigation. He stated there is no one that can say what will happen to the aquifer. He stated he can tell you that their use of this land should not adversely affect the aquifer. He stated it is being used for many, many gallons of water daily throughout the region. He stated other than that he doesn't know what he can add to alleviate their fears. He stated he does understand when the one lady spoke about trespassers. He stated people are people and they hope they get good neighbors and they will certainly sell to good people. He stated the people who live there already are pretty good people and they think that the people who are going to move there in the future will probably be pretty good people.

Mr. Mahnic stated to Mr. Wagner that there was a question about the sewage and the conservancy district.


Mr. Wagner stated it is his understanding that they will or have attained the IDEM...

Bill Arden stated that they have obtained the sewer availability letter.He stated they have been admitted to the district for sewer service. He stated the next step would be to apply to IDEM for the construction permit. He stated they have been told that they have the capacity for the 191 lots.

Mr. Boehnke stated he said the aquifer covers the surrounding areas. He asked if this also include the "Trees" Subdivision up the road. He asked if they were on that aquifer.

Mr. Wagner stated he doesn't know the answer to that.

Mr. Boehnke stated they went dry. He stated if they are on that aquifer and they went dry what is to keep them from going dry.

Tom Kleban stated he lives at 143 S. 500 W. He stated first of all the Commissioners already changed the zoning from Rural Residential to R-1. He stated the only reason they did that was that they had the permit to be accepted into Lake Eliza Sanitation. He stated you have a letter of intent but you still don't have the permit to be in there. He asked how can the Commissioners act upon changing the zoning when they really don't have the permit for R-1 zoning. He asked what is safe about putting a passing blister on his driveway when his girls are out there waiting for the school bus. He asked what is safe about standing for a school bus in a passing blister. He asked where is the Highway Commission and where were they at the TAC meeting. He stated you people are supposed to be involved in safety. He stated there is no safety there. He stated he doesn't get it. He stated he just can't see where you call a passing blister his driveway. He asked what is the right-of-way anyway. He stated he only has four feet between the driveway edge and the ditch. He asked are you telling me that you are going to take the ditch or twenty feet of his yard and driveway. He stated he would like an answer from the Commissioners why they changed the zoning in the beginning without a full permit from IDEM for the sanitation district. He stated he understands that they have a letter of intent but this is not a full permit.

Mrs. Kleban asked Mr. Wagner to answer her question about the safety of the children and the school buses.

Mr. Wagner stated there is no answer to your question. He stated if you have trouble with the Assistant Principal at the school, there are people who will not drive safely. He stated the people in this subdivision, fortunately for you, will be going very slowly. He stated if you are worried about the people in the subdivision and your driveway, you should not worry because they will be going slowly turning in and turning out. He stated the question on the passing blister becomes part of the roadway. He stated just like the deceleration lane and the existing roadway. He stated if you are not having trouble with your children standing on the roadway he doesn't think you will have trouble with them standing on the passing blister.

Bill Arden stated McMahon and Associates is an environmental engineering group. He stated they have a couple of water engineers. He stated what they did as a study or first look at this is depend on handouts literature from the DNR Division of Water and there is a couple of them and they give somewhat of an overview about the Valparaiso Moraine. He stated like Mr. Wagner said the maximum pumping for typical well is 400 to 600 gallons per day. He stated they have high capacity wells going through 1,000 gallons per minute on the aquifer. He stated they have done developments of homes that wanted a municipal well on the same aquifer in Lake County and they ran good. He stated they have through the Department of Health a couple of test wells well logs from individual wells, which test out at 10 gallons per minute. He stated they were good wells, deep wells, and 100 feet and clean water. He stated they expect the same from here. He stated with the 191 individual wells if they grouped it into one community well they would be far less than agriculture irrigation. He stated from what they found through the DNR and how they talk about the Kankakee Water Shed and the Valparaiso Moraine in this area and when you look at maps they are different color coded, the Valparaiso Moraine is in the light green, dark green and there are scenarios when you get into the yellows and the browns. He stated those go down to 100 gallons per minute as the best out peak. He stated "Trees" Subdivision may be in a different area. He stated with that they feel confident that they aquifer that they are on and into Lake County and LaPorte County is pretty massive.

Mr. Kleban asked the Commissioners why they granted the R-1 change.

Commissioner Burrus stated the Commissioners agreed or approved as you said, based on the availability of capacity of the Lake Eliza system. He stated the permit you are talking about is a construction permit and that has to be passed on based on construction drawings and what they plan to do as far as the system installation is concerned. He stated this will be an event that will follow just like the plans of construction of any subdivision will follow and those will have to be approved and they will have to be inspected when they are installed. He stated the issue is there is an approved location for this wastewater to be discharged. He stated it is Lake Eliza and they do have capacity and they are willing to accept it.

Mr. Kleban asked if they had a letter from them.

Commissioner Burrus stated this is his understanding.

Mr. Breitzke stated one thing that we do need to make clear is that these Commissioners, the Plan Commissioners, don't do the rezonings. He stated the County Commissioners of which Mr. Burrus is one of three, that actually do the rezonings. He stated the Plan Commission makes the recommendations and they do the rezoning. He stated if they don't get the permit for the sewers this whole subdivision is mute. He stated it goes south real fast. He stated they will not get building permits until such a time as they have guaranteed waste water treatment or they will have to go back to the drawing board and through the whole process again.

Mr. Vandenburgh asked if the owner has considered donating the 129 acres.

Mrs. Kleban stated this afternoon she was chased into her house by coyotes. She stated the coyotes live across the street in this area. She asked if they are going to come by her when they build over here. She asked where are all of these animals going to go.

Mr. Wagner stated he has no answer to that.

The public hearing was then closed.

Commissioner Burrus stated he has no comments at this point.

Mr. Mahnic stated this primary plat has taken a long time to develop because when TAC approved it it was way back on February 14, 2003. He stated it took a long time to get here so that means that they had a lot of problems and he thinks that they did a good job. He stated TAC did make some recommendations when they made a favorable recommendation and the Commission doesn't have anything to do with it. He stated it says subject to the phone company to service the subdivision to be resolved. He stated he assumes that by the time they build the first house that will be resolved. He stated also it states that there is a road agreement to be made; covenants; Drainage Board approval; who will maintain the ponds; letter from the Soil Scientist showing that the Army Corp of Engineers sanctioned its findings; consider subsurface drains at the road; 50-foot no access easement, which he sees that they have, at the intersections and subject to sidewalks. He stated if you meet these comments he is in favor of approving this.

Mr. Detert stated when we do large subdivisions like this he thinks that we need sidewalks. He stated Mr. Wagner said it is not necessary but he thinks that we have the right to ask for sidewalks. He stated he thinks that there is a very clear danger to joggle in this time frame and you have two major thoroughfares adjacent to you, the jogging has to take place inside and kids on tricycles need a place to ride them. He stated he thinks that they need sidewalks, period. He stated he can't see putting this large of a subdivision without sidewalks. He stated we have them at Falling Waters and he thinks that they are going to be an asset to the developers when they sell and he thinks that they are clearly needed for safety reasons.

Mr. Breitzke stated that it says in the Book that as a Plan Commission we may require sidewalks in order to "facilitate pedestrian access from the roads, schools, parks, playgrounds or other nearby roads."

Mr. Bucko stated what this kind of reminds him of and he doesn't have a problem with the project, but he has been through some portions of the South Haven area and the streets are there and the roads are there, and you are going to get people parking on the roads, if they park on the roads people don't have no real clear place to walk. He stated he has a problem with that. He stated he thinks that this is a safety issue within the subdivision. He stated there is a tremendous amount of people there. He stated this is the only real draw back that he has on the whole project. He stated he is goes along with Bob Detert on that.

Mr. Burns stated he agrees with Mr. Bucko and Mr. Detert's comments.

Mr. Biddinger stated that those who know him know that he is a stickler on details and a stickler on statistics. He stated when you talk about agricultural irrigation rates taking 400 to 800 gallons per minute there is something that you have to realize is that agricultural irrigation rates maybe run from May through maybe August. He stated this is it and it is not run the whole year. He stated where your statistics for 40 gallon per minute needs to be realized that this is 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year. He stated the irrigation rate is only run portion of the day, portions of the week and portions of the year depending on the rainfall and the growing season. He stated to please be careful when you use statistics. He stated concerning the development itself he has been through a number of training sessions dealing with planning and zoning. He stated they tell us to keep an eye out for the innovative, for new ways of approaching things and for new ideas. He stated this is kind of a difficult lot to work on. He stated he doesn't see anything innovative or anything real outstanding about it. He stated he knows that it falls within our ordinance and it is probably about as good as it can be done with this particular piece of property. He stated he is not real comfortable at the way it looks at this point. He stated he can't really say why and this is a problem sitting in this seat because he has to explain for legal purposes be able to tell everybody why he says yes or why he says no. He stated he thinks that it falls within our ordinance fairly well but he is just not real comfortable the way that this is executed.

Mr. Detert stated he has one more comment that he forgot. He stated he is not that far from "Trees" Subdivision. He stated he doesn't think that there is a problem here. He stated he thinks that "Trees" was substantially a different problem. He stated it would be nice to know that this isn't being taken out of the same aquifer because that was a real mess. He stated this is more of a Health Department problem than the Commission's. He stated Lake Michigan water isn't that far from this development. He stated it is a couple of miles away. He stated it would be nice to know what the affects of that might be and the expenses involved because the water is in Falling Waters Subdivision and it comes up to just west of CR 725 W.

Mr. Breitzke stated at his other meeting tonight, he is on the Coastal Advisory Board, and the Governors prohibits at this time to tap into Lake Michigan water outside of the watershed.

Commissioner Burrus stated you indicated some studies or some indications that you had regarding the capacity of the aquifers in this area. He asked Mr. Arden to repeat what he had said.

Mr. Arden stated it was in publications where they brought this out from the DNR Division of Water. He stated it is off of their website. He stated it is labeled "Ground Water Availability" and it talks about the Kankakee River Water Shed and the particular different aquifers. He stated with the Valparaiso Moraine in the area that is color coded in that they typical well could have the capacity of 400 to 600 gallons per minute on the aquifer.

Commissioner Burrus stated that has the capacity based on the spacing of the wells and so forth. He asked if there was any indication this site might be able to sustain with respect to a draw down.

Mr. Arden stated there was nothing in this publication as to how far they have to be spaced as such.

Mr. Breitzke stated should this be passed tonight toward final plat they consider maybe bringing some information forward of a more technical nature for TAC that we have some assurances too of the overall impact. He stated the other issue that he believes because of the size of the lots and really the intent was not to include a lot of the open space and to keep the threat of community together. He stated we are putting a lot of people in a space and sidewalks seem very appropriate in this case. He stated he would be a big advocate of putting sidewalks in here.

Mr. Detert moved to approve Case 03-P-2 with the stipulation that sidewalks be addressed and mandated on the lots. Mr. Burns seconded the motion.

Discussion:

At this time, Mr. Wagner read from the Ordinance concerning sidewalks.

Mr. Detert stated his recommendation is that the Commission can ask for it and there is a lot of difference between 1960 and 2003. He stated there are a lot more people on the street and he thinks that it is a safety issue and he proposed it as a safety issue and he would like to call for the question on his motion.

Motion failed due to a lack of a majority vote:

Biddinger - No Bucko - Yes Burns - Yes
Detert - Yes Mahinc - No Burrus - No
Breitzke - Yes

This case is continued until the August 13, 2002 Plan Commission meeting.

Mr. Breitzke stated that the public hearing is closed.


Case 03-Z-8. Petition of John T. Hannon, P.E., 6084 Lute Road, Portage, Indiana for a proposed amendment to the Master Plan to rezone a parcel of land from R-1, Single Family Residential to R-3, Multi-family Residential to be located on the
West side of CR 250 W. between CR 100 N. and the entrance to the
"Hills of Aberdeen" in Center Township, Porter County, Indiana.

Karen Tallian stated she is an attorney in Porter County and with her tonight is John Hannon. She stated that she is here this evening on the application for rezoning on a small portion of a larger parcel. She stated the portion that they are asking for the rezoning is approximately 4.7 acres but she thinks that they should provide you with some background that this is actually the first step in a subdivision that is going to encompass approximately 14.5 acres. She stated what they have shown on the picture board is a preliminary layout and she understands that they are not here tonight on a preliminary plat. She stated they are showing the Commission their proposal because it seems there are a lot of people who want to know what they are doing. She stated this entire parcel is Hannon family property that has been in the Hannon family for...well John can remember two generations. She stated they know that it has been at least forty years. She stated the Hannon family still owns this entire piece. She stated it is all zoned R-1. She stated what they are looking at is to put in R-1 here and then this section right here is proposed a series of eight buildings that would be approximately 37 units. She stated the units that they are looking at would be upscale retirement golf course condos. She stated they don't have price ranges at this time although they are not looking at starter homes. She stated the application is currently for rezoning of the 4.7 acres at the lower end. She stated this is along Tower Road. She stated it is also adjacent to Aberdeen and it is adjacent to where the Aberdeen Waste Water Treatment area is located. She stated she would like to talk about a couple of things in terms of the entire proposal because she thinks that it is important to know why they are looking for rezoning on just this small parcel. She stated the current zoning is R-1 and the minimum lot that would be allowed in an R-1 is approximately 11,000 square feet. She stated all the lots that they are proposing here and there are 23 single-family homes, are going to be considerably bigger than that. She stated they are not trying to build a subdivision that is going to cut the piece into as many minimum size parcels as possible. She stated all these lots are probably 20% bigger than what would be required. She stated some of the lots are over a half of an acre. She stated as it is set up they are currently looking at 23 lots. She stated if we took this entire parcel and kept R-1 and use the minimum amount they could get up to 47 lots in this piece. She stated what they are looking at is considerably less dense piece than what they ordinance would allow. She stated the other thing that they want to point out to the Commission is that unlike the previous applicant they are not looking to develop a subdivision with no sewer and water. She stated this area has water available from the City of Valparaiso. She stated there is storm sewer drainage that is available and John can answer question about that. She stated it would be discharged to an existing functional drainage ditch. She stated finally the sanitary sewer is available from Nature Works Conservancy District, which is the Aberdeen Waste Water Treatment Plant. She stated the Aberdeen Treatment Plant is located on property that was previously owned by Hannon's. She stated it was part of the Hannon parcel. She stated when they sold that property to Aberdeen there was a deed commitment that would allow them use of the sanitary sewer facility if there was capacity available. She stated they have a letter that they have attached to this application showing that there is capacity available and that this subdivision could use that waste water treatment facility. She stated the other thing that they would like to point out is that this area has been zoned R-1 for a number of years. She stated since that time Porter County has developed and the area around this has changed dramatically. She stated there is a PUD there now with Aberdeen. She stated there is a very high density apartment complex, "The Hills of Aberdeen" which is located within 300 feet of the lower corner of this property. She stated they feel that this concept having large single family lots at the northern end of the property with condominiums located in between would be a good transition from a high density use to a single family residential. She stated if they would try to cut this up and put single-family dwellings in this entire space where they are now suggesting condominiums they are just feeling that this is not a good thing to put single-family right next to this big apartment complex. She stated finally there are a couple of things that she wants to point out. She stated normally you would look at how much green space is available in any subdivision. She stated she thinks that you should see here that this entire inside line is on a golf course. She stated there is a lot of open space, a lot of green space. She stated way more green space than probably any of us have in our houses. She stated this green space acts as a green space buffer. She stated it provides an opportunity that most subdivisions don't have at all. She stated they are proposing this parcel to be rezoned to an R-3 and they are doing this with the intent and they don't have anything in writing but they are willing to do that with the intent that this is going to be a lower density use than would other wise be allowed under either the R-1 or the R-3 in that portion that they are asking for a subdivision.


No one spoke in favor of this petition.

Owen Compton stated he lives at 252 W. 100 N. He stated basically his argument here is some of the public safety. He stated CR 250 W. is a bike route. He stated so there is a lot of traffic there now. He stated there is high density population there now with Aberdeen going back and forth on U.S. 30. He stated CR 100 N. is also getting very populated with traffic. He stated about two years ago his daughter came out of their driveway about 150 feet and someone ran the stop sign and nearly killed her. He stated there are a number of accidents along that road now. He stated basically as far as traffic goes with the population of bike riders, jogger and so forth what is another high density facility going to do to us. He stated this also encompasses his whole property. He stated he has been there for nine years and not once since they have started their development have they come to talk to him but they are telling him they are going to run his life or change it drastically.

Hugo Marks stated he is an attorney from Marks and Boyles, 61 Michigan, Valparaiso, Indiana. He stated he is representing the Comp tons and they have approximately one acre, the Blanko's who have 37 acres across the road and the Rachford's who own 35 or 36 acres across the road down here. He stated he thinks that the issue here tonight is whether or not this would be approved if Aberdeen were not there. He stated he suggests to you the entire areas are one if you look back at the history of the zoning ordinance or the Master Plan in 1959 this was all basically agriculture and now it has become some single-family residential in agriculture. He stated if you look at all of the area, he has looked at the map there, he has already mentioned the Rachfords and their acreage. He stated the Broton's are up here with 118 acres and the Myers have a horse farm at the southwest corner of U.S. 30 and CR 250 W. He stated that they have 24 acres and Wallace have 10 acres. He stated the Plurick family and his partner Peter Boyles and they own together 20 acres. He stated he thinks that there was a previous petition to put apartments in up in this area, which was denied. He stated this is all R-1 and mixed agriculture. He stated Liz Marshall is here and she owns 46 or so acres. He stated there are animals here at the horse farm. He stated Broton's have animals. He stated Mrs. Marshall has animals. He stated it is an agriculture and single-family residential area until you get down to Aberdeen. He stated this to him has been approved as Barb Young pointed out earlier this evening, as a Planned Residential Development. He stated this is a community in of itself basically. He stated while this is in close proximity to the golf course and to the apartments it is not directly contiguous to those apartments. He stated there is across the road the sewage treatment plant and to him this is a buffer that is going to be there a long time. He stated his suggestion is that if you allow this parcel to go R-3 what then prevents them to come in later and ask that the remainder of it be R-3. He stated what prevents his partner who has 11 acres up here to come in here and ask for R-3 or multi-family. He stated he thinks that we then have allowed spot zoning to the way this area that is already established. He stated there has been no indication that there are people clamoring for this to be rezoned and to have multi-family in this area. He stated that there is a suggestion that the drainage is adequate and he thinks that his clients and others will indicate that there are problems with drainage as it exists and it will only be compounded by this. He stated he thinks that there are many reasons why it should not be approved because it is just going to be a tipping affect that will then allowed further breaches of the zoning ordinance. He stated he would point out he does believe NIPSCO, if he is correct, owns the fee simple to this here. He stated while we are not here tonight for this parcel there will have to be approval from them in order to cross over there. He stated in terms of the overall development there are some contingencies here that have not really been fully explored or approved. He stated if you think about what is the best use of this parcel here, and he heard them say that this is going to be upscale and for retired people, he assumes that they wouldn't exclude younger people with families. He stated this can be an attractive nuisance, the sewage plant. He stated it has a fence but it can be to younger children to climb over. He stated that these towers are not protected and that can be an attractive nuisance for children. He stated he has a lot of problems and his clients have a lot of problems with respect to how it is going to affect them but further more what is the adequacy of that in terms of public interest and safety.

Monie Parker stated he lives at 166 N. 250 W. He stated his question is he wants to make sure that he fully understands this. He stated he believes that there is a stop sign right here. He asked if there was going to be a stop sign here too. He asked has anyone looked to see how that is going to affect the traffic flow. He stated this is not flat terrain over there.

Elizabeth Marshall stated she lives at 267 W. 100 N. She stated she thought the petition tonight was just for the condominiums that are proposed. She stated they are talking about a subdivision. She stated first of all she has a problem with the entrance to the condo's. She stated they are going to 37 units. She stated there is only one way in and one way out. She stated if we have an emergency of any kind or we have a potential accident the people that are in the condominiums will be stuck in there, the road will be blocked and the emergency will be taken care of. She stated there is only one way in and one way out. She stated the cul-de-sac that is in where the condos are she doesn't know if you can "u" turn with the fire department trucks. She stated there will be deliveries. She stated there will be Fed-X and UPS. She stated you don't know that it can accommodate trucks of this size. She stated she is not saying this is spot zoning because spot zoning is not illegal, however, it is interesting that this petition has divided the R-3 from the R-1 that they are proposing. She stated in Aberdeen they have a failed promise. She stated they were told that they were going to be condo's. She stated they have apartments there. She stated it has changed the character of their part of Porter County. She stated she lives on the northwest corner and she owns 50 acres there. She stated she does have cattle. She stated she doesn't plan to subdivide. She stated she has a small pond behind her house and she has it stocked. She stated she guesses those people think that she is the recreation for that part of Porter County because they think that they can just cross the fence and use her dock and her boat and fish. She stated they are not welcome there. She stated she doesn't want to clean up after them. She stated she doesn't want to clean up their bottles and pop cans and picnic leftovers. She stated she also has a problem with people parking on the road in front of her house and going down through the valley, she guesses to bypass paying the golf fees. She stated she has put notes on cars. She stated she doesn't like them parking there and she doesn't want them parking there. She stated a major problem that we have on CR 100 N. is the entrances to what is called the "Links." She stated she drives this every day because she goes to Lake County. She stated those two entrances and she doesn't know if there have been any accidents that have happened there yet, but if you are coming east and you are down just pass the second entrance you get to the top of the hill pretty quick. She stated the folks in Aberdeen think that they don't have to stop because they don't. She stated it has become necessary for her to put up a fence. She stated she has spent thousands of dollars for fencing. She stated she has had snowmobiles through there. She stated she has had four-wheel vehicles and folks from Aberdeen walking down the road thinking that they can walk through her woods. She stated she doesn't want them there. She stated she had someone on a horse show up, a girl in a T-shirt. She stated she is down in her lake washing this horse. She stated she caught people with cans throwing them in her pond and shooting at them. She stated she went down there and approached them and they said the neighbor told him he could do that. She stated it is private property and she pays the taxes. She stated she doesn't want them there. She stated we have traffic. She stated when she pulls into her driveway and walk across the street you almost take your life in your hands to get your mail. She stated they just zip along here. She stated she doesn't know how many mailboxes she had to replace. She stated when she goes down CR 100 N. approaching CR 250 W. she is very disciplined to make a complete stop, check who is coming to see that they stop because she doesn't want to get hit. She stated the only way to correct this problem is to put a traffic signal there. She stated it is that bad. She stated you are not safe there. She stated she doesn't think that this is a good proposal. She stated now you are going to have a road at this high density-housing complex. She stated this is going to be affordable housing. She stated affordable housing is how many square feet in the right price range. She stated she doesn't consider Aberdeen to be the upscale best of best. She stated she has seen much better. She stated she doesn't think there is a brick house over there. She stated she is not sure. She stated she doesn't go over there. She stated she would also like to see what the Highway Department has to say about these entrances into this subdivision and this density housing because it is located next to a very smelly sewer plant. She stated if you can tell older people who want to live in these condominiums and if you can sell that package and you go through that valley you smell that sewer plant. She stated now she would like to talk about the drainage. She stated when Aberdeen went in she told you that there is going to be a drainage problem. She stated there are drainage problems. She stated they presented it as the unnamed tributary to Clark Ditch. She stated it runs down the back of Blanco's property and there is a kind of a swampy area. She stated then the county put in a big tube under CR 250 W. She stated the beginning of Clark Ditch is on her property. She stated at this time because of the water getting under there she has had to fence off approximately five acres of her property, which is now under water, but she has fenced it off and she has had cattle for years there. She stated she has lived there since 1976. She stated she used to have renters from Kansas renting her property. She stated they lost a horse and a cow. She stated they had an autopsy done of the cow at Purdue University. She stated they found that there was a question about the consumption of the water. She stated two years ago she lost two cattle. She stated she cannot afford to autopsy cattle to see what was wrong with them. She stated she had some one else do a test that said that there was questions on what was fed to the cattle. She stated the cattle on her property are not fed any growth hormones. She stated they are simply fed cracked corn and ground feed and grass and supplement hay. She stated the only other source is the water. She stated she had to donate five acres of her property because it is a cesspool and she thinks that you allow any more...and then this road is going to run right across the street from the entrance to her thing...if you folks haven't been out to look at this property she wants to invite you all out there because it is not a flat in row. She stated you are going to create some deaths there.

Homer Rachford stated he lives at 146 Gilford Circle. He stated he and his wife own 36 acres on CR 250 W. across from where the proposed rezoning. He stated the problem that he has with the water is that at one time he had two neighbors and it was a very nice country setting and there was little traffic and no water problems. He stated then here comes progress. He stated Aberdeen comes in. He stated now whenever we have a heavy rain the water comes down that ditch and at one time there was a 10-inch culvert there and that is what the farmers put in at one time. He stated because of the water coming down through he has 34-inch culvert in there now. He stated even now when the water comes down it is washing around the culvert. He stated so what he had to do was to take a big boulder and pack it on the sides so that it was pushing the water through. He stated on the other side it is washing away the bank. He stated his concern right now is the water from across the way that is going to come underneath CR 250 W. and it is going to run right down into his ditch. He stated the water that this takes right now is just water from a little underground stream. He stated water comes down and comes back underneath. He stated once they get out there and change the terrain and stuff the water is going to come down and fill that ditch and it is going to come across underneath CR 250 W. and he is going to have a lot more water than he has now. He stated also with the progress the south end of his property butts up to the Aberdeen Apartments and because of that they don't have any place to run their water off so they are running it off into his ditch again. He stated he has some very interesting pictures that he has taken that he would like to pass around to the Commission members to look at. He stated if you look on the back of the pictures it will tell you what is taken out.

Jeff Blanco stated he lives at 97 N. 250 W. He stated he is here with his wife Maria Blanco. He stated they live directly across the proposed development here. He stated it is comprised of 35 acres and they have lived here for six years and they moved into this particular area because of the rural setting as well as the single family zoning which is proposed to change here. He stated they the people believe that the Eagle View Development and rezoning proposal is inconsistent with the many conditions set forth in Series 600 of the Indiana Code IC 36-7-4. He stated for this hearing they respect that both the Planning Commission and residents of the community that he represents here today he would focus on the conditions that pertain to Section 601 and 603 to why Eagle View and their rezoning proposal conflicts with the Statutes within these Sections. He stated Section 601 states when it adopts its zoning ordinance the Legislative Body shall act for the purposes of No. 1, Secure adequate light, air, convenience of access and safety from fire, flood and other damage. He stated No. 2, lessening or avoiding congestion in public ways, No. 3, promoting the health, safety, comfort, morals, convenience and general welfare. He stated Section 603 states in preparing and considering in a 600 series the Plan Commission, by and in front of us here, and the Legislative Body shall pay reasonable regard the Comprehensive Plan, which refers to the Master Plan by our area, current conditions and the character of current structures and uses in each district, the most desirable use for which the land in each district is adapted; No. 4, the conservation of property values throughout the jurisdiction and No. 5, responsible development in growth. He stated Eagle View in the proposed rezoning compromises all eight of these conditions but again with respect to the family's here and those people waiting at home he will discuss only three. He stated that is the safety, morals and property values as it relates specifically to these ordinances. He stated first of all let's consider safety. He stated as stated under the current plan for rezoning there is a single entrance and exit for proposed 37 units. He stated should for whatever reason that entry or exit be blocked during an emergency many unfortunate people would be harmed and property be destroyed unnecessarily. He stated secondly due to the extensive developmental in the area in the last five years CR 250 W. and CR 100 N. has seen traffic level grow to a point where current residents no longer feel safe. He stated in fact many serious accidents have occurred including four years ago an accident involving a motorcyclist who was killed virtually at the site of where the one entrance is proposed. He stated two years ago an accident involving the daughter of the Compton's totaled her car and sent her to the hospital. He stated last year a drunk driver drove into the very culvert that they are proposing to direct this water into. He stated last weekend Homer Rachford was rear-ended. He stated where safety is considered the additional volume in Eagle View exacerbates an already overburdened roadway, which is designated as a State Highway route. He stated when consider morals while subjective and often relative to the individual morality is at stake concerning Eagle View and the rezoning proposal. He stated for example, seven of the proposed condo's will be located within 50-feet and all 37 within 600 fee of the sewage treatment plant, which is a short distance from all eight of the proposed condos. He stated it is important for the Planning Commission to understand the sewage treatment plant has had mechanical problems causing raw sewage to be dumped into neighboring wetlands and waterways generating incredible odors, have cooling fans that malfunction, which cause excessive noise for over a week and recent required extensive dredging after the EPA inspection determined it out of spec. He stated given the condo's proximity to this treatment plant, in fact even a well operating treatment plant, who could sleep at night knowingly have approved, marketed and sold such a property. He stated he has a picture that will demonstrate the view that two of the condos will have. He stated he thinks that the Commission will appreciate the situation there. He stated in terms of the larger project question of the morality of the proposed development is also supplying that fact that NIPSCO corridor high voltage line creates incredible electrometric fields which consider to cause cancer including leukemia in children. He stated currently under the World Health Organization undergoing a four-year study to determine the effects of EMF on the community. He stated we must consider the moralities of this. He stated lastly consider the property values. He stated given the numerous challenges that this development has including topography, proximity to sewage treatment and electrical towers as well as the competition in existing developments are far from saturated including the Aberdeen Links, The Hills of Aberdeen Apartments, Aberdeen Town Homes and Condos. He stated the only attraction for Eagle View could possibly have is price. He stated while the developer may have a stake otherwise common sense would tell you that you could buy virtually the same type of dwelling for the same price without the challenges apparent in Eagle View. He stated this will mean that Eagle View will have to offer a price point that will be lower than the current property values driving the current residents to get the resale value that they deserve. He stated in addition it is commonly accepted that homes in single family zoning maintains its property value much more than high density zoning and that single family housing property values negatively affected by close proximity to high density dwellings. He in conclusion allow him to state that he has done his best to keep the fact that his family and property will be one of those most adversely affected by the ramifications that are a direct results of the Eagle View proposal. He stated such as his existing pond, which is fed by the natural stream that is part of the wetlands on this property, which has not been addressed by this group at all and a potential for flooding. He stated instead, realizing that this development impacts all of them negatively these points raised affects the community at large. He stated again, the people ask the Planning Commission to stay true to the design of the Master Plan as a whole and not its acceptions. He stated regard the stipulations and statutes and ordinances that protect the people that have to live with your decisions and prioritize the needs of the current residents and not the degree of the developer. He stated on behalf of the community they thank you for your consideration and invite you to come and see their community and experience first hand the reasons why they so adamantly want to protect it.

William Rachford stated he lives at 1254 Madabi Court, Crown Point. He stated he is speaking on behalf of his dad and he has owned that property and he has helped out his dad a lot there. He stated his sat here before when they were building Aberdeen the same issues were addressed, water, the sewage and the traffic and they said they would be addressed and taken care of. He stated there are still water problems and they have never been addressed. He stated if you take a look at those pictures there his dad spent considerable time fixing their property because of the water being washed out. He stated that the water is washing out the ditches. He stated you never know when you go out there after we have had heavy rains you can't have a picnic and eat because you have to smell the sewer plant. He stated they told them that you wouldn't have a smelly sewer plant. He stated concerning the traffic they were having a birthday party for his son this weekend and one of the people turned into his dad's driveway there and got rear ended. He stated before they do any more building there behind that sewer plant he would like to see the sewer plant taken care of and the issues need to be addressed there. He stated he would like to see the water issues addressed and the traffic issues.

Maria Blanco stated she lives at 97 N. Tower Road. She stated she thinks the pictures that Homer had passed around to you she wanted to mention to you that this is what they deem the effective and functional ditch. She asked what type of marketing research the developer has done to warrant putting up condominiums and is there a need for them. She asked if this is something that is backed by research or backed by the desire to make a profit.

Kim Parker stated she lives at 166 N. 250 W. She stated they live right on CR 250 W. and she can't even cross the road to get her mail without almost being hit. She stated she has to open her mail real quick and stand on the side of her mailbox and then look each way before she can cross to go back to her drive. She stated she has almost gotten hit about three or four times because people do not care and they speed down that road. She stated also they can't even back out onto CR 250 W. She stated they have to turn around in their yard to be able to get out of their drive in order to keep from getting hit. She stated she used to be able to walk her dogs around the subdivision in the road. She stated she can't even walk them down CR 250 W. and she doesn't know why they made it a bike route. She stated this is the most dangerous road. She stated that there have more accidents on that road since Aberdeen has gone in.

Don Nowlin stated he lives at 143 N. 250 W. He stated his concern is the traffic.

Wade Blastick stated he lives at 115 N. 250 W. He stated his concern is like everyone else's. He stated the road has become a nightmare. He stated it is almost suicidal. He stated as far as high density, he thinks that the apartments in Aberdeen have pretty well taken up the high density.

Tom Rigg stated he lives at 267 Turnberry Drive. He stated he lives in Aberdeen. He stated we have seen what the apartments have done to our part of the world and they don't like it. He stated the road is very overloaded and density has done that to it. He stated they don't want any more density.

Ned Kovachevich stated that he lives at 259 Danica Dr. He stated he would like to say three things. He stated first he would like to welcome back Bob Thompson. He stated secondly this property is going to develop. He stated it is zoned R-1. He stated he would like to see it develop consistent with the existing zoning, which is R-1. He stated Mrs. Marshall does have a point. He stated it would be really nice if no matter what they do with this property if this road bends around and connects with this development whether it is developed as R-1 or whether it is developed as multi-family. He stated it would be nice if they could make this connection right here and eliminate this entrance.

Bruce Roth stated he lives at 280 Scotscraig Drive. He stated he lives in the Aberdeen Links. He stated he would like to say a few things and it won't take very long. He stated number one, they have probably five different multi-family residential areas in the area right now. He stated the apartments have ten buildings and occupancy is less than 50% right now. He stated Dornoch, which is building back in Aberdeen, which is a real disaster. He stated Glen Eagle is multi-family and it is a very nice development within Aberdeen and maybe one-third of all those units have been sold. He stated there a lot of units that have not been sold. He stated the roads here are a disaster. He stated coming down here at CR 250 W. is going downhill. He stated the area by the "Links" you can almost get hit coming in there. He stated there has to be a deceleration lane or turning lane on CR 250 W. He stated the road is not wide enough for the cars to stop there. He stated if it stays R-1 residential that is fine. He stated there are 475 lots in Aberdeen right now and about 400 of them are sold. He stated in the Links themselves there are 88 lots right now, which is right next door, they have 22 houses and five of the lots sold right now. He stated they are all competing for real estate.

Dr. Cary Bewick stated that this is his wife Becky Bewick. He stated they live in the Links. He stated they moved to the Links thinking they would get away from the City of Portage. He stated his concern is the sewage treatment letter that was supposedly put forth here who came up with this particular letter as far as certification that the sewage treatment plant in Aberdeen was capable of handling the sewage from this development. He stated it is his understanding that the Aberdeen sewage plant was overloaded by the misusage of the Hills of Aberdeen being placed there and overloading the system. He stated to put more burden they are saying right now that if they go with R-1 they can put 47 units but if they get this R-3 development then it is 23 plus 37 for a total of 60 units that they will be putting in there. He stated he thinks that they will be overloading an already overburdened system.

Becky Bewick stated she lives at 277 Renfield Court. She stated she is pretty much in agreement with everybody. She stated it is very dangerous. She stated they forgot to mention that two weeks ago at Mr. Compton's house ran into the street sign and she doesn't know if they were seriously injured or not. She stated there are accidents at that particular corner all the time. She stated the main thing that most people seem to forget or have left out is that this road curves this way and the entrance into the Hills at Aberdeen you cannot see the oncoming traffic. She stated there have been several people going into the ditch. She stated if you are going to have these people who can't see coming in and out and the people here who won't be able to see coming in and out as well as all the traffic coming up on this particular hill and people blow the stop sign all the time. She stated it is very dangerous. She stated also on CR 100 N. it is very dangerous. She stated this particular entrance here at the Links there is two here. She stated you cannot see people coming in and out. She stated with more homes going in the back now it is very dangerous.

Ms. Tallion stated that a great many of the comments that were made here tonight appear to address the concerns of the people who live out there and they are concerns with things that are already going on out there. She stated she understands that you all may have concerns about that but she doesn't know that those concerns are necessarily direct at this particular proposal. She stated some of these concerns seem to be directed at Aberdeen or the county road situation that way things are. She stated these concerns are not necessarily specific to this particular change because these concerns would still be there even if they were in here today with strictly an R-1 proposal. She stated a lot of the comments have to do with adding anybody new out there. She stated this is already zoned R-1. She stated as they previously said if they cut this and divided it up according to the maximum amount that the R-1 zoning would allow there would be 47 allowable units out there. She stated what they are talking about is a rezoning on part to give more than what would be allowable and using the other R-1 at a less dense rate and what they are proposing is 60. She stated the difference between 47 and 60, which is really what they are asking for here is a difference of 13 extra units. She stated the way that they are looking at this is that they are hoping that what they can accomplish maybe a less dense usage in terms of number of people than would otherwise be allowed if this was divvied up into the maximum number of small single family units. She stated they calculated a couple of things. She stated they calculated 47 single-family units at 3.5 people each and she thinks that people of 1.5 children. She stated they came up with 164 people. She stated if you use their proposal and you take 23 single family residences times 3.5 people and you take these condos, 37 condos and call them two people, you are looking at 154 people, which is ten people less on 13 units more. She stated the reason that they are looking at that is because they do expect to market this to the retired golf crowd set. She stated people who would be happy to have a condo on a golf course overlooking a nice green space. She stated several of the comments that she heard tonight are probably premature because they are not necessarily address to the question of "should we change the zoning" but they are addressed to the question of "is the road placed in the right way, and is there enough room for the fire truck." She stated they would expect that they would have to address all of those concerns at the primary plat stage and would go through those with TAC. She stated what you see here is a proposal. She stated this was the initial proposal and this may or may not be what is approved through TAC but some of these questions would be helpful to this group when they do go through TAC. She stated to address Hugo Marks' concerns, yes they know that historically things have changed out there. She stated it is no longer just rural farmland. She stated it has been rezoned all around here. She stated what they are asking for is a transition piece. She stated they don't think that this is spot zoning.


She stated that they think it is exactly the opposite. She stated they think that they are building in a high transition from a high density to a large single-family area and they are hoping that by use of this sort of upscale condo concept that they can affect that transition. She stated they believe that this proposal precisely corresponds with the Master Plan and the Comprehensive Plan for the County because the Comprehensive Plan for the County suggests and directs that you concentrate people in those areas where services are available. She stated this is a place with and water services available. She stated that some of the traffic issues are premature because this really needs to be done.

John Hannon stated they did have the property investigated and they have a formal wetland delineation report that was prepared by Thurman Soil Solutions here in Porter County. He stated they have had the representatives of the Corps of Engineers on the property to get their concurrence with their understanding of where the wetlands are. He stated they understand where they are and they plan to build around them and to only deal with them as approved by the Federal Regulatory Bodies. He stated in terms of drainage there is a culvert under CR 250 W. and it is incumbent upon the engineer who designs the subdivision to make sure that the capacity of that culvert is not exceeded. He stated all of the property that we see here drains to that point and they won't be really changing any drainage patterns and they do intend to provide the necessary storm water detention so that the system is not overloaded by this development. He stated in terms of traffic it is our intent that any new roads that come out onto CR 100 N. or CR 250 W. meet the requirements of the County Highway Department. He stated sight lines will be taken into account. He stated clearly stop signs will be provided at all the new intersections. He stated the proposed cul-de-sac for the condominium area does not exceed the Counties maximum allowable cul-de-sac length. He stated the radii that are shown there are adequate and they meet the design standards for the County and clearly will have to accommodate garbage trucks and snowplows and fire trucks. He stated they have to go through TAC and they will have to go through a subdivision process. He stated there will be plenty of opportunity to make sure that this is done properly. He stated Karen addressed the traffic issue as clearly as he could. He stated that this property is zoned R-1. He stated if they develop it as all single-family lots that meet the minimum standards. He stated they expect a certain population with these condominiums. He stated they expect that population will not really be exceeded because the people that will be using these condominiums...there just won't be as many people in those properties as you would expect to see in a standard single family lot. He stated obviously the wastewater treatment plant is nearby but he has walked this property and he has to apologize to Mr. Compton for not stopping in and seeing him. He stated there are some beautiful views on this property. He stated we have a letter from the attorney on the wastewater treatment plant for the conservancy district. He stated they clearly indicate that capacity is available. He stated he has spoken to the engineer that serves the conservancy district. He stated they have excess capacity at this time and are probably looking for some more people to tap on. He stated capacity at this time for the wastewater treatment plant is not an issue.

Becky Bewick stated they moved there specifically for the view. She stated they had a beautiful view where they were at before and developers came in a moved in behind them. She stated they moved there to have this lovely view. She asked if there were going to be trees to block the homes. She stated they love the fact that the deer run through with their babies and the other animals that run through here. She stated this is why we moved here. She stated this is all going to change. She stated she is still concerned over the traffic issues.

Jeff Blanco asked where on this map are the wetland delineation and what is the impact by acreage to that wetland delineation. He asked if they have permission from Valparaiso for water. He stated that you said it is available but do you have permits for it. He asked what kind of conversations have gone on with NIPSCO associated with the property. He asked how many feet is the sewage treatment plant from the two condos presented on the south side of the developer. He asked what impact assessment has been done to address the current traffic flowage.

William Rachford stated when the Hills of Aberdeen started out they were going to be condos and they turned out to be apartments. He stated they were going to market a certain type of people and he thinks that it is pretty hard to do. He stated when people come to rent or buy you have to sell it whether they have five or six kids or whatever this is what you have to rent to or sell it to. He stated this is what they are experiencing over there right now. He stated we have had fences up and kids go and tear them down and use the property for whatever they want to use it for.

Owen Compton stated basically his house has been approved a lot over the years. He stated it is an old farmhouse. He stated basically everything around them is going to be new. He stated he would like to know how they are going to fit his piece of property in with this new development.

Maria Blanco asked does the zoning commission work with the Highway Patrol to find out what the impact is. She stated obviously the first priority here is safety. She stated to say that traffic is not an issue and everything else...it is an issue and it is a fact. She asked who are you going to market this property to and what kind of marketing research have you done.

Bruce Roth stated that you mentioned the roads are going to be built to county specifications. He stated he suggests that county specifications are not okay because of the width of that road right now. He stated if you think that you just get by by doing that...there are no turn-ins available there. He stated this is going to be a big problem. He stated he thinks that the roads are a big issue here.

Wade Blastick stated he lives at 115 N. 250 W. He stated that John Hannon indicated his drainage was going to come through a tube across CR 250 W. He asked where does it go from there because Clark Ditch is silted in so bad there is hardly any drainage in that basin anymore. He stated if they build parking lots and roadways and the whole field that is there now holds the water and runs out slowly when that changes that is going to flood everything on the other side of the road.

Mr. Hannon stated concerning the wetland delineation, he hasn't figured out the total acreage. He stated they do know the location of the wetlands and they intend to work around them. He stated they are actually flagged if anyone wants to look at them.

Mr. Breitzke asked Mr. Hannon if he had a drawing and if he could he just point out the wetlands.

Mr. Hannon stated yes. He stated they have had the Corps of Engineers on the property.

Mr. Mahnic asked if we could address the zoning issue versus all these other things that will be addressed if it is rezoned.

Mr. Breitzke stated yes.

Mr. Hannon stated regarding water they have been in contact with Valparaiso Water Department. He stated they are aware of the project. He stated they have already talked about looping the water main from where it exists on CR 250 W. into the Aberdeen Links. He stated they have agreed to that. He stated the wastewater treatment plant is immediately south of that property line. He stated it is within 100-feet of the condominiums. He stated they do not have a traffic study in this area. He stated to talk about the actual intersections. He stated those intersections will have to go through a design process and if acceleration and deceleration lanes are required they will be put in. He stated NIPSCO has a copy of this plan along with a description of the project and a description of the crossing both the road and utility crossing. He stated they have had both telephone conversations and written communications with NIPSCO. He stated concerning drainage they will work with the Drainage Board as appropriate and they have every intention of providing the necessary detention to not overload the downstream properties.

Mrs. Marshall stated when Aberdeen was approved they contributed so much money to the road fund. She stated they indicated that all the people would be going down to Rt. 2 and going from there. She stated however, CR 100 N. and CR 250 W. are impacted and she would like to know when we are going to have some improvement on those two roads to take care of this additional traffic. She stated it is one thing to say that we have a tube under the road where drainage is going to go but you can't dump it on the neighbors. She stated you can't dump contaminated filthy water. She stated she thinks you need to give this concern when you give approval to this subdivision.

Kim Parker stated she would like to know if they do put this in and they do something about the road are the mailboxes going to be on the other side or are they going to be on the side where the house is.

Mr. Breitzke stated this is up to the Post Office.

Mr. Compton stated his question wasn't answered. He asked how where they going to incorporate an old farm house into their new subdivision.

Mr. Breitzke stated this gets away from the zoning issue itself. He asked Mr. Hannon if he could answer that quickly and if he has any comments.

Mr. Hannon stated he doesn't know what to say. He stated that is Uncle Dick's farmhouse and he used to go there all the time. He stated you have done a nice job. He stated the single- family properties that are adjacent to you if for those to be high and middle class single-family homes. He stated that these are going to be lots that are served water and sewer and a full city type street. He stated the people that build there are going to have an interest on keeping it up and they are going to have new houses.

The public hearing was then closed.

Mr. Mahnic stated he has to agree with the folks who have a problem with the traffic. He stated he has traveled that area in the last couple of weeks while checking on some other case. He stated he almost got rear-ended. He stated it is very difficult to turn around unless you go all the way to the end. He stated the Hills contribute to some of the problems. He stated he doesn't know what there is to gain by rezoning this. He stated he thinks that it should stay R-1.

Mr. Detert stated he thinks that if there were written commitments on the lower density that might help because right now they could come in and apply for R-1. He stated increase the density and all of these traffic problems and so forth would be magnified. He stated we are at a preliminary stage where we are asking for rezoning. He stated a lot of these details have been worked out. He stated they have to appear before the Commissioners and they have to appear before TAC. He stated they have to adhere to the ordinance and they have to adhere to the Highway Department. He stated all of these things have to take place. He stated this is just one step. He stated at this point he thinks that we are talking about a lot of things that can't be answered and won't be answered until we get it to the process and we don't get into that unless we do something here tonight.

Mr. Bucko stated having been pretty heavily involved with the Comprehensive Land Use Plan where we talked about building around and condensing the population on the outskirts of city's where services and everything are available. He stated that portion of the change does comply with that kind of comprehensive plan. He stated there are a lot of issues and it sounds to him that they are issues that have to be worked out and could be worked out in the process of what Mr. Detert had spoke to. He stated as we know when we talk about all the water issues and whatever, there is a process for that and the Drainage Board handles all of that. He stated he thinks that with some of the properties that are adjacent to this and the fact that it is condensing the property in the areas that the Comprehensive Land Use Plan suggests, he thinks that it can be cleaned up and worked out very nicely whether it is roads or anything else with it through the whole process.



Mr. Burns stated he is concerned on the traffic safety in the area and it also views this as spot zoning. He stated he is against spot zoning.

Mr. Biddinger stated he has nothing to add.

Mr. Breitzke stated he would like to say that one of the things that he would like to see that we discussed a little is a thru street instead of having the two accesses come through in consideration of following through. He stated screening would be something to consider as far as the Commissioners benefit one way or the other. He stated he doesn't want to see the two accesses off of CR 250 W. He stated the reality is they could develop a single-family residential home subdivision and have a lot of the same issues. He stated the other thing is some conditions can be set forth by the Commissioners perhaps to enhance the overall community.

Mr. Hannon stated they are very willing to entertain limitations on this plan. He stated this is why they prepared a plan like this. He stated he is very happy with the 23 single-family lots that they show on the north side of this property. He stated he would like to keep it like that. He stated they understand that a straight R-3 rezone gets you into whatever that gets you into. He stated they are willing to accept a limitation on the number of units that would go into the R-3 and tie it directly to the proposal for 23 lots on the north side. He stated they are willing to accept conditions on that sort if that is where the Commission would like them to go.

Commissioner Burrus stated the action being requested is a rezone and that would allow whatever is appropriate within the R-3 zoning irrelevant what these folks are proposing. He stated if they decided after getting a successful rezone that they want to sell the property this whole scheme would certainly not necessarily apply anymore. He stated we need to keep in mind that we are looking at what is appropriate and what is allowed in the R-3 and then make our decision based on that.

Mr. Detert stated they can make written commitments.

Commissioner Burrus stated he understands that is true and possibly with respect to the density that might be applied within R-3, but he doesn't know if those commitments would apply or would run with the land.

Attorney Schaefer stated it can run with the land. She stated it could be set up that way and the commitments would be binding on someone else.

Mr. Detert stated we have done that sort of thing before and they have worked out pretty successful.

Commissioner Burrus asked if this is something that should be discussed and at a following meeting to come up with a proposal and a commitment.

Mr. Breitzke stated it is important that they get together with the Commissioners and give you an intent and make the Plan Commission aware so if anyone is remonstrating they know what those written commitments are in advance.

Mr. Hannon stated he worked with this plan with Chuck Bowman from Design Organization. He stated if you stand up here on this ridge you can see 360º. He stated you can see the whole world on this ridge. He stated he thinks that this is the best use of the property.

Mr. Detert moved to continue Case 03-Z-8 and have the petitioners appear before the Plan Commission with some proposals on restrictions of the R-3 zoning with something in writing, such as a written commitment. Mr. Mahnic seconded the motion, which carried on the following roll call vote:

Burrus - Yes Biddinger - Yes Bucko - Yes
Burns - Yes Detert - Yes Mahnic - Yes
Breitzke - Yes

Mr. Breitzke stated this will be heard again on August 13, 2003. Th