DEVELOPMENT ADVISORY COMMITTEE

Regular Meeting
October 2, 2008

M I N U T E S

The regular meeting of the Development Advisory Committee was held on October 2, 2008 at 1 p.m. in the Porter County Administration Center, 155 Indiana Avenue, Valparaiso.

Those members present were Kevin Breitzke, Joey Larr, Mike Haller, Tim Cole, Harvey Nix and Robert W. Thompson Jr.  Also present was Toni Byers.

The following Case was heard by the Committee on this date:

Case 08-10-14.  Petition of Vitoux Properties LLC, 310 N. 400 E., Valparaiso, seeking developmental review for a door company office and plant, to be located at 388 E. Pilot Dr., in Washington Township.  Zoned I-1.  (Sec.33-35N-5)

Don Bengel stated that he is representing the petitioner in this matter.   He stated that it’s a very simple site on Pilot Drive, which is located North of 30 behind Case at 400 E.  This was subdivided prior to the ordinance, and what we have is Allied Door Company, owned by Darryl Vitoux, owning it as Vitoux Properties LLC. He wants to put a facility up for his business.   Presently, he’s a couple of miles North of here and what he does is sell doors, not manufacture them.  They may have to rehab doors or change the work on them, the hardware on them.  He proposes to have his shop, an office and a storage area in the back.  They’ve worked with Ray Joseph on the landscaping, which seemed to be the biggest issue, and Mr. Thompson had asked  them to put in a forebay, since the pond’s across the street, and that they did.  At the bottom detail, there is a cross-section of the forebay.  It’s plenty big enough and the outlet is a 12-inch perforated pipe with a sock, which connects to the inlet in front of the property.   He has one copy of the landscaping plan.  He has several trees out there, which give him credit.  They are going to add one tree in front of the building, and they have shrubs to put in.  His plan shows all the parking places.  They have 3 shrubs per space and they have 16 spaces, so they have 48 shrubs.  They have all the permits they need except the building permit.  They have the driveway permit.  They have the septic and well and the state building release.

Mr. Thompson stated that he wants to explain a few things here. This started off as Jim Zimmer’s development, with Apex Excavating, and he did record a subdivision out there.  It was done prior to the UDO, but it is a recorded subdivision. So, therefore it is a development plan review.  By the fact that it is a lot within a recorded subdivision, it does not have to go for a public hearing, but it still has to go in front of the Plan Commission for development plan review.  Mr. Zimmer did get a Special Exception for the site.  It was mainly based off of his site, where the outside storage is required by that, and he developed a pond.  One of  the things we want to double-check is to make sure that the pond was developed for the entire site.  They will contact Duneland Group about that. Pilot Drive was approved and it’s on the recorded plat and the road was built to County specifications out there.  It’s greater than County specs at 34 foot back to back at curb.

Mr. Bengel stated that he doesn’t think he has a surface on yet.  Is he the only one that can do outside storage?

Mr. Thompson stated that he would have to review the Special Exception and he’d have to read it.  He was the petitioner.  The question is, does it cover the whole site, which would mean the entire recorded subdivision, or is it going to be specific just for Apex Excavating?

Mr. Vitoux has no plans for outside storage.  He can see where Zimmer needs it, with what he’s got.

Mr. Nix asked if this was recorded as a subdivision for housing or light industrial purposes.

Mr. Thompson stated, light industrial purposes.

Mr. Larr asked, going down 30 and you turn left on 400 E. to go North…he knows that Case is on the West side of 400 E.

Mr. Bengel stated that the entrance to the subdivision is right behind Case.

Mr. Larr stated that there are other businesses around that area besides Case.

Mr. Bengel stated, oh, yeah, you go down 30, you got Elegan…

Mr. Haller stated, Gary-Hobart is right across the street.

Mr. Bengel stated, going down 30 you have Case and then you have Tony’s Saddle Shop….It’s all pretty well-developed down 30 there.

Mr. Larr asked, and that existing retention pond is on the North side of Pilot?

Mr. Bengel stated, yeah, they show the pond on there.

Mr. Larr stated, and you say it takes in water for the subdivision.  You’re talking about the light industrial subdivision?

Mr. Bengel stated, yes.

Mr. Larr asked, none of the water from the East side of 400 E. from that little subdivision…?

Mr. Bengel stated, not from 400 E.  It’s just from the subdivision that he built.

Mr. Thompson asked if Mr. Zimmer completed the pond or finished grading it out.

Mr. Bengel stated that it looks as though the pond itself is there and he thinks it’s like on the Northwest side that he has a pile of dirt that needed to be graded out. 

Mr. Thompson stated that he walked it and there was a stretch that was supposed to go as far as an overflow that was supposed to go back in behind his business.  He walked it and it appeared like he did put it in.  He was just wondering if he did the final grading.

Mr. Bengel stated that he might be waiting to haul that sand to a job site, too; he doesn’t know. 

Mr. Thompson stated that they should be sure to work out an address for this site.   He asked if they have the two trees and shrubs and stuff per parking spaces on the landscaping plan.

Mr. Bengel stated, right.

Mr. Thompson stated that he saw on one of the drawings that he is even putting in a sidewalk for the perimeter.

Mr. Bengel stated that the only thing Vitoux was concerned about was, is everyone going to put a sidewalk in ?

Mr. Thompson stated that that’s their requirement. Apex came in prior to the code, so he can’t really do that, but everybody else that comes in should have it in unless they go in front of the BZA and request a Variance.

Mr. Bengel stated that what they ought to have is like the City has, a waiver, where, if you don’t put it in now, whenever the County decides it goes in, you put it in.  I think a sidewalk waiver seems to work out pretty well in the City. And I think it depends where you are.

Mr. Thompson stated that if they really need spaces 1 and 2 as far as parking area, if you look at the code, he believes in industrial it’s supposed to be back behind the building line, so he should try to move that back some.

Mr. Bengel stated that he thinks the parking rationale was according to the ordinance, but that’s way more parking than he needs because he doesn’t get any customers.

Mr. Thompson asked if he based that off of the minimum?

Mr. Bengel stated that he thinks he did.   They had a total of 16 spaces.  He guesses they didn’t take the 40 percent. If they took the 40 percent, they could cut that down.

Mr. Thompson stated that since this is a subdivision recorded prior to the UDO, they can develop on well and septic.

Mr. Breitzke stated that he would call it a recorded plat, not a recorded subdivision.  It didn’t go through any process.  It basically was a land division that got recorded, which was okay with the ordinance at the time.  We really need to talk with Duneland Group, as he could swear the pond was designed for Zimmer’s facility, not in consideration of road and additional development, so that could be an issue.   He has problems with the rectangular design of the forebay and there was something in the ordinance specific to pond configuration and he would think that would apply to forebays, make it a little more attractive, sculpt it in to the property a little bit better.  He doesn’t understand, personally, why they have sidewalks in industrial sites.  A commercial or retail site makes perfect sense, but typically in an industrial site you need security for plant and people protection. 

Mr. Bengel stated that his client is upset about the sidewalk, but said that if he has to do it he’ll do it. 

Mr. Breitzke stated that if one’s going to do it, they’re all going to do it and, having said that, he’s not a big believer in waivers; either do it now or just forget it.   Is 400 E. an all-weather road?

Mr. Thompson stated that it is.

Mr. Breitzke stated that he thinks the development to the East that he brought up drains more to the South, but this is kind of unique, because it seems like this property drained off to the North and then came back around to the East or something.  Regarding outside storage, it would bode well to have something that goes along with the deed just to say this will not be used for outside storage for potential future users of the building.  Is there a fence requirement for this property?

Mr. Thompson stated that South of this is zoned industrial, so there would not be a buffer requirement, no. 

Mr. Breitzke asked if he is going to have any lighting around the building?

Mr. Bengel stated, three lights across the front, small lights.

Mr. Thompson stated that they have to be shielded.

Mr. Breitzke stated that he might want to consider fencing just for his own security.

Mr. Haller asked if  there is any septic field shown on this drawing?

Mr. Bengel stated that they have a septic permit, and the septic’s in the back of  the building.

Mr. Haller asked if that’s 47 feet wide there.

Mr. Bengel stated, yeah.

Mr. Breitzke asked how many square feet they were required.

Mr. Haller stated, actually, it’s less than that because there’s a drainage easement there.

Mr. Bengel stated, 600 square feet.  So, that’s only 200 feet of tile.

Mr. Haller stated that he shows a tree where he has the building drawn.  Is that a tree, or is that one they are going to plant?

Mr. Bengel stated that the one right next to the building is there.  They are going to put a new tree in in front of the building, as requested by the ordinance.

Mr. Cole asked where the well is going to be.

Mr. Bengel stated that he thinks it’s going to be North of the building.

Mr. Cole stated that he was looking at the parking, too, and he didn’t think they needed that much parking.  He asked what kind of doors these are.

Mr. Bengel stated, commercial doors, people doors.

Mr. Cole asked if he is going to have trucks in and out of this.  What kind of trucks?

Mr. Bengel stated, he doesn’t know.

Mr. Cole stated that he needs to find out because this doesn’t look truck-worthy if they are going to be large trucks.  They could be a little innovative on that forebay, just dig out a little crescent shaped slot.

Mr. Bengel stated that the only people coming in are going to be truck drivers.

Mr. Cole stated that there is all of this open space here on the East side.  Now, that also brings to mind this little extension or this apron on the back of the driveway. 

Mr. Bengel stated, at a later date, possibly he could put another building on there.

Issues raised were: parking should be behind the building line; discuss if pond is designed for additional development; something on deed saying no outside storage; show septic field on plat; look at reducing parking; sculpt forebay into property a bit better.

At this time, Mr. Nix stated that he got a phone call the previous day from Doug at IDEM and he wanted him to go look at a site up on Highway 6, 6 and County Line Road where they’re redoing all that.  He went up there this morning.  In the whole thing that was going on, IDEM was asking if INDOT had permits for some filling that was going on and he went to their site and talked to someone, the engineer for them up there.  The site he looked at and took pictures of, they had started to stockpile some sand and dirt and stuff there, but it was still on their easement that they had bought.  When he left that site, he went to this other site then.  When he followed a Rieth-Reilly truck out of there and when he went back into Ingram Manor, he proceeded to dump his truck out in a 40-acre field out there. So, he finally chased down Christopher Garrison, the owner of the park and asked him if he had an IDEM permit to do any filling out there, which he said he thought that was taken care of with Rieth-Reilly and INDOT.  As of the moment, Mr. Garrison and them are probably in violation out there, because he doesn’t have any permit.

Mr. Thompson stated, we don’t have any permits, as far as fill goes.

Mr. Larr stated that he got a call from back in when they first started, back in early August, from the person who owns the property on 700 N. concerned about the drainage affecting his personal property and Rieth-Reilly entered into a contract with the Garrisons to allow this fill to be put on the 20-acre slot.  The 20 acres goes from the back of Ingram Manor all the way to 700 N.  Mr. Breitzke and he talked about it, as well, when he was doing the initial investigation and he told Mr. Sanchez that there’s not a whole lot the County can do because they’re under…on their own property, not maneuvering any of  the natural drainage, as well as the County’s efforts along 712 W.

Mr. Nix stated, right, but under the stipulations for IDEM, a disturbance that requires filling, grading or anything more than an acre requires a permit from IDEM.  So, there is 30 acres being filled that definitely…

Mr. Breitzke stated that they are exploring that.  Actually, DNR and he talked yesterday just before they called Mr. Nix and he suggested that they call Mr. Nix to make him aware of the situation with it.  At the same time, they got into a pretty good discussion about what do you do when you get into large residential lots and you go out and reseed.  We just had all this flooding.  We have people who will probably be digging up their whole yards and be going out to do landscaping.  Do landscapers go out and get Rule 5 permits from the state?

Mr. Nix stated, if it’s in a development and it’s washed out?

Mr. Breitzke stated that this isn’t in a development.  He’s talking about somebody’s yard, period.

Mr. Nix stated, if it’s over an acre that’s disturbed.

Mr. Breitzke asked, has anyone in this county?

Mr. Nix stated, oh yeah.

Mr. Breitzke stated, oh, yeah.   He goes back up there into Portage even….

Mr. Breitzke stated that he’s talking about on somebody’s residential lot…

Mr. Nix stated that if runoff occurs from that site, if it leaves that site into a road ditch…

Mr. Breitzke stated, well, in Garrison’s case, it veers off into his old ponds.

Mr. Nix stated, yes, but then it also continues a little bit farther.

Mr. Breitzke stated, well, out of the ponds, it goes North…

Mr. Nix stated, but he is not the landowner of these buildings, though.   See, when that volume of water is leaving a site, he’s already in violation once because of the storm water.  Number 2 violation is because of the sediment that went off of the site into this cul-de-sac and the streets that are there.

Mr. Breitzke asked, you mean on Garrison’s?

Mr. Nix stated, yes, unless he owns the mobile homes that are sitting there?  If not, then he’s in violation.

Mr. Breitzke stated that he was under the impression that he rents.  He doesn’t know if he also sells some of those homes or not.

Mr. Nix stated, dealing with IDEM, the filling part is the part that they’re going to look at first and he’s just going to file….

Mr. Larr asked, these were right at his detention ponds?

Mr. Nix stated, yes.

Mr. Larr asked, was that during the September rain?

Mr. Nix stated, in leaving the site, they cut this notch, and water left the site and there’s supposed to be a roadbed.  It came in and came right into that subdivision.

Mr. Breitzke stated that the subdivision is Ingram Mobile Home Park.

Mr. Larr stated, what he was talking about before, he had actually, to alleviate some of the flooding in Camelot earlier…

Mr. Nix stated that he’s going to send his report to IDEM and let them handle it.   But he’s definitely in violation.  The reason why he can’t come in off the County road is because they wouldn’t let him probably traffic all that fill back around and come in off of 700, so that’s why he went through a subdivision of his own to get the fill in.   Chances are he’ll probably need a permit and a plan.

Mr. Breitzke stated that the plan he’s talking about is probably storm water protection.  Rule 5, from the standpoint of counties and municipalities, it’s not so much the disturbance. It’s where they permit and have the disturbance, because it gets back to how do you control somebody who goes out and they’re going to see a lot of what you’re seeing, where people are re-landscaping  their yards and stuff, and an acre is 208 feet square, basically.

Mr. Nix stated, even some farmers we’re getting now, if they’re putting up implement buildings,  they may fall under this one acre, and there are some times they may have to, if  they disturb an acre.

Mr. Breitzke stated that agricultural land and use has been exempt.

Mr. Nix stated, not anymore.

Mr. Breitzke asked, by policy or by statute?

Mr. Nix stated, by statute.

Mr. Breitzke stated there’s no way to police it all.   He asked the IDEM guy if he’s aware of all the BMX and ATV tracks that are out there now and he said, oh, there aren’t that many.  But  there are.

There being no further business, the meeting was adjourned at 1:50 p.m.