DEVELOPMENT ADVISORY COMMITTEE

Regular Meeting
February 15, 2008

M I N U T E S

The regular meeting of the Development Advisory Committee was held on February 15, 2008 at 9:00 a.m. in the Porter County Administration Center, 155 Indiana Avenue, Valparaiso, Indiana.

Those members present were Kevin Breitzke, James Branham, Tim Cole, Paul Graeber, Mike Haller, Harvey Nix, Ray Joseph, Ray Riddell and Robert W. Thompson Jr.  Also present was Toni Byers.

The following cases were heard by the Committee on this date:

Case 08-2-2.  Petition of Arcadia LLC, P.O. Box 300, Calumet City, IL, seeking primary plat review for a major subdivision, Arcadia, to be located at the Northwest corner of CR 700 N. and CR 50 W., in Liberty Township.  To contain 33 lots on 76.1 acres.  Zoned RR.  (Sec.26-36N-6W)

John Hannon and Mary Little stated that they are representing and accompanied by the petitioner, Pat Kleighe, in this matter.

Mr. Thompson stated that they are scheduled to be on the March 12th Plan Commission meeting.

Mr. Hannon stated that they made some modifications based on the comments that were received from DAC at the informal meeting.  He stated that the most significant thing that happened is that they got a comment sheet from the Health Department questioning the size of some of the lots, so they had to go back and reconfigure the lots a bit.  They lost three lots in the process.  They have not provided the full landscaping plan yet.

Mr. Kleighe stated that they are working on that at the present time.  They are doing the tree count on the perimeter.  They do have a perimeter of trees along 700 and along 50 and along 75.  It seems like they are probably going to have to put mostly evergreens in through there and they will have that for the next meeting.  They don’t plan on taking out any of the trees there.

Mr. Hannon stated that they got comments yesterday from DLZ, so they will start to respond to those comments.

Mr. Branham stated that Ninebark Court, they have that extended to the West, stubbed off.  Are there plans to extend that past that line?  If not, there needs to be a cul-de-sac or turnaround of some sort at that point.

Mr. Hannon stated that they intended to show a T-turnaround out there.  In fact, if you look at Sheet 2…they intended to indicate a 34 foot by 64 foot T-turnaround.

Mr. Branham asked if there is any intent to put a water system in here.

Mr. Hannon stated, no.

Mr. Joseph stated that he believes the drainage narrative was sent to DLZ.  We are waiting on the landscape plan.

Mr. Thompson stated that we got comments back on the road names.  There were some that were rejected:  Sumac Road already exists elsewhere.

Ms. Little stated that they changed that to Burr Oak and the other one was Goldenrod and that was changed to Catmint.

Mr. Thompson stated that the Postal Service and Engineering rejected Goldenrod, which exists in Forestview Estates in Porter Township; they also rejected Arcadia Road because it’s close to the name of a road in South Haven.

Mr. Breitzke stated that he’s still trying to figure out where all the water ends up.  Where does the water outlet eventually out of the subdivision?

Mr. Hannon stated, through the wetlands, into the wetlands, he should say.  There are 3.5 drainage basins.  Phase 2, everything North, goes into the detention pond. Their concept is, and this is something that they are going to have to work through with DLZ, their concept is that they have this big wetland up on the North side of the property that is pristine and first class.  They would like to keep some water going towards it.  There is a tendency, when people design subdivisions, to collect all the water and take that to a detention pond and then let that water meter out.  What happens over time is that the wetlands dry up, so their design that was submitted has some water still going into this wetland.

Mr. Breitzke stated that he’s getting off the topic.  He wants to know where the outlets are out of the subdivision.  He is satisfied with the wetlands and it’s good to store the water there, but, from the wetlands, where does it go?

Mr. Hannon stated that it meanders out…

Mr. Breitzke asked if there is a natural watercourse that shows activity out into…because, eventually, it ends up in Damon Run.

Mr. Hannon stated that it kind of wanders through this road ditch and kind of ends up over in Damon Run. 

Mr. Breitzke stated that the purpose of our ordinance was to try to keep as much water onsite, which this is really consistent with, but they also have to have overflow protection because there is a level at which the water, at certain times, would have overflowed the wetlands, and it would head off someplace.  They need to know where it goes from there, and it would help if they would have a map indicating those outlets points and their relationship with Damon Run and the eventual outlet.  He thinks they could paint a pretty good picture of what happens, and he’s pretty satisfied that they have a good control mechanism in it, with good intention, but when it gets to the point of how they are going to deal with it if it overflows, that’s what they need to make clear.

Mr. Hannon stated, to get to the question, these two on the West side drain to the wetlands that’s West of this piece of property.  This wetlands drains to the East and ends up in Damon Run.  Then this detention pond is a formal outlet through a pipe into a ditch.

Mr. Breitzke stated that that’s a little more clearly defined on the East side, because there’s just kind of that rivulet that goes off to Damon Run as it sweeps back to the West.  It’s not far from the road there.  That’s something they kind of need to clarify.   He asked if they have the new entrance for Sumac/Burr Oak marked out in any way in the field so they have an idea of exactly where that’s going to come out.

Mr. Hannon stated that they haven’t flagged it.

Mr. Kleighe stated that across the street is where the other driveway is.

Mr. Breitzke stated that it would be helpful to have a landmark there, wrap a ribbon around a power pole or something.  He’s a little concerned when you have a roadway out how it affects the people across the street – are you going to be shining lights right into their house or building etc.  We may need just tapers here, but that’s easier to figure out if he knew where that was. They going to have the screening all the way around.  Do they have a landscape architect they are working with?

Mr. Kleighe stated that they’ve been working with Porter County Nursery.

Mr. Breitzke stated that they might want to also check with Todd Hutson of the County Extension Office on the trees.

Mr. Riddell asked if they have handled how the street lighting at both entrances is going to be maintained.

Mr. Hannon stated, no.

Mr. Riddell stated that the County doesn’t want responsibility for maintenance of the street lights.

Mr. Thompson stated that originally they had street lights in and the code now still talks about filing a lighting plan, but a number of people sat there and said they did not want the lights in the subdivisions because of light pollution, so all we are asking is for them to submit some kind of lighting plan.  One of the things they were looking at is if they wanted to do some kind of soft architectural type lighting onto a sign or something like that at the entrance to kind of define it and so it’s not bright, but just enough so people would recognize it as the entrance.   That is if they want to do that.  If they are going to do a lighting plan, all they are asking is that they show what they are going to do.  Originally, at every intersection, they were talking about having a street light and then that got knocked down, but, if they are going to have a lighting plan – such as what they are proposing, that everybody have a dusk to dawn light in their front yard – the County wants to know about it.  But it doesn’t state that they have to do it.

Mr. Riddell stated that when they get to the construction drawing phase, we need to see the details for the entrance island.   Also, 50 W. is going to need some kind of taper.  They would like to see a profile of 50 W. at the entrance to determine the sight distance, especially to the South.  Also, they need speed limit signs.  At Arcadia Avenue at 750 N., the angle is kind of awkward and, per code, we don’t allow an angle of less than 70 degrees, so he is wondering if he could show a detail of that so they conform there.  Going back to the T-turnaround, they would like to know what the elevation is West of there.  Does it drop off right away?  Are they going to need some kind of delineation or guardrail even, depending on what happens after it. They show some yield signs at intersections.  It’s not a bad idea, but he looked through municipal code for that to see what they say on this, and it just seems a little odd.  He thinks we would rather have stop signs.

Mr. Thompson stated that he has the ability to waive the requirement on the lighting, as does the Engineering department, especially if it’s not on a collector road, and he doesn’t think these are.  He is going to go out there and see if there is any street lighting.  If there isn’t, he’s not going to propose anything.  If they want to have some kind of intersection lighting, as far as like a soft architectural lighting on signs to identify the intersection, he has no problem with that.

Mr. Kleighe stated that he thinks they are probably going to do both entrances, and maybe the corner of 700 and 50.

Mr. Haller stated that they are going to need an erosion control plan submitted to this board:  storm drain protection; side slope protection on the ponds; type of grass; size of rocks; all that good stuff.  They have to have all that worked out before they start digging. 

Mr. Kleighe stated that they anticipate using the power lines as a divider for their phasing.

Mr. Cole asked if all the streets will be constructed in Phase I.

Mr. Kleighe stated that in Phase I they will put one entrance in and stub it right at the power lines and then stub it at the West where the T-turnaround is.

Mr. Cole stated that the detention ponds themselves, so many times it looks like an abandoned basement.  He hopes they are going to see some creativity here.  He’s seen some detention ponds that you would never know are detention ponds that function fully and completely and they were beautiful to look at and he thinks this subdivision cries for that.  Is the pocket park going to be a tot lot or could it be?

Mr. Kleighe stated that they are maybe just looking to put benches in there.

Mr. Cole stated that we don’t have enough of those for kids.

Mr. Hannon stated that that’s where the old oak tree is.

Mr. Cole stated that he knows there is going to be something raised at the public hearing about the drainage to the East into that one fellow’s yard, because he understands, over history, he’s gone out and plugged up the drains so that it doesn’t drain into his yard whenever we get a hard rain.

Mr. Kleighe stated that he’s designed a couple ponds and, when it does rain, there’s a lot of water that comes down there, but he thinks with the detention that water is not going to be shooting across the road as it did.

Mr. Hannon stated that they are going to help him with his problem.   Right now, there’s a relatively small diameter pipe that’s under the road.  That, very often, when a big rain happens, that water exceeds the capacity of the pipe, rolls over the road and goes wherever it wants to go.  They are going to have a controlled situation and meter the water out to him.  He’s going to see a real improvement on what’s coming at him.

Mr. Cole stated that he knows Jerry Gloyeske and he knows that he has no intention of continuing to farm and his sister would like to see some of the farm remain as farm.  He doesn’t know who will win in that situation, but he’s sure this is all going to get developed, which creates a tremendous traffic problem on U.S. 6 if they allow 75 W. to be the feeder to U.S. 6.  This is one of the oldest roads in the County and it was never designed for a highway crossing, so he’s anticipating the fact that CR 50 W. will probably continue straight North through what might be future development and he just wants to say that they should consider that in their design as a possibility.  He asked that they also think of the Girl Scout camp to the West and to try to keep the nature of that camp rural and rustic and inviting to campers.  The street lighting has already been addressed and when he mentioned this to one of the people living in the area, the very first thing he mentioned was the dusk to dawn lights and how that would take away his night sky.  He would like to emphasize that at one point in our history, street lighting was something we all wanted and desired, but as the street lamps began to crop up, after a while, they began to shine in everybody’s windows.  If you are spreading light into the sky, off to the side, you are wasting light and energy.  They should consider that in their lighting design.  The intersection of 50 W. and 700 N., in the dark or in a rain or snow storm, is very dark and hard to see; putting a street lamp there would be very beneficial.  He also thinks the County needs to bite the bullet and consider a stop sign at 700 and Meridian. 

Mr. Breitzke stated that the intersection of 750 at the North, they need either a Variance or to do a tangent, and he thinks that higher road might be just to do the tangent, rework the curves.  A possible option with Highway would be to open up the throat of that thing to give a much wider intersection, but he thinks it would be preferable to try to meet that at a 90 and work the tangent back.

Mr. Hannon stated that they were trying to get an extra lot in there, but, after the letter from the Health Department, they’ve lost a lot up in this corner, so he’ll take a look at that.  He thinks they might be able to fix the geometry on that.

Mr. Thompson stated that we need a copy of the Health Department letter for the file.

Mr. Joseph stated that they need a list of the caliper of the trees; include landscape plan etc. for the pocket park; list of trees to be planted.

Issues raised were change some street names (Arcadia, Goldenrod etc.); map indicating overall drainage basin and off-site outlets; mark Sumac entrance on the site; lighting plan; details for entrance island; tapers on 50 W.; profile of 50 W. at the entrance to determine sight lines; speed limit signs; elevation West of the T-turnaround; use stop signs instead of yield signs; erosion control plan; intersection of 750 at the North – either do a tangent or get a Variance; copy of the Health Department letter for the file; list caliper of trees; include landscape plan etc. for the pocket park; list of trees to be planted.

There being no further business, the meeting was adjourned at 9:40 a.m.