PORTER COUNTY COUNCIL
June 22, 2004

The Porter County Council met on Tuesday, June 22, 2004 at 7:00 p.m. in the County Administration Center, 155 Indiana - Suite 205, Valparaiso, Indiana.

Members present were Karen Conover, Carole Knoblock, Robert Poparad, John Ruge, Al Steele, Rita Stevenson, and President William Carmichael. Also present was Attorney David Hollenbeck, Auditor Sandra Vuko, Sheila Riley and Jan Noll.

The meeting was called to order with the Pledge of Allegiance.

Mr. Carmichael, You've all received minutes of the May 27th meeting. Are there any additions and corrections to those minutes? If not, I will entertain a motion.

Mrs. Conover moved to approve the minutes of May 27, 2004 as received. Mr. Ruge seconded, motion carried on a unanimous voice vote.

FIRST READING

At this time, Mrs. Vuko read the Notice to Taxpayers.

PROSECUTOR IV-D 01.35
144 Form
Administrative Assistant from $0 to $22,295 - Request Denied
Caseworker from $0 to $19,699 - Request Withdrawn
Caseworker/Clerical from $0 to 19,699 - Request Withdrawn
Additional Appropriation
$61,693 to 1110 Salaries - Request Not Needed

Mr. Carmichael, We'll first hear from the Prosecutor.

Jim Douglas, Good evening.

Mr. Carmichael, Evening, Jim.

Mr. Douglas, Bill, if I may, before we start on my request for the money, I'd like to introduce to the council members that don't know him, Bruce Dumas.

Bruce Dumas, Hello.

Mr. Douglas, He is the, I guess, once again, I hired as the director of the IV-D program. He's not a new employee with regards to the IV-D budget. I'm paying him currently out of the 12.08 part-time attorney fund that I have, which doesn't require the Council's input at this stage. And I will advise you on the 2005 budget we'll be submitting a relatively new budget showing Bruce and the new position, and probably making some additional changes with regards to that office that we propose.
Today what we have is a request that I think I filed in, I think it was on the agenda first in April for an amendment and an additional to the IV-D budget, which is 1.35. I'm asking for three people, and as of now, what I'd like to do is simply talk about, and request the Council to give me the Administrative Assistant, which is the first line item, which is at $22,295, and I'm withdrawing the request for the two additional people. Mainly, because I've got Bruce in there now, and I want to look at it, and if we request anything more, for in the future, we'll do that in the 2005 budget, not now.
But, having said that, I am requesting the administrative assistant to be, I guess, reinstated in the budget. I know we're going to need that in the future, and we need it now. Incidentally, that is a position that was, I guess eliminated or not funded, beginning in 2002. We had the position in 2001, and then in 2002 because of all the cuts and things, that position was not funded. We've carried it on the books; the Council has carried it on the books as a regular slot at a zero amount, so I'm asking that that be reinstated now. I know I'm sounding a little bit like a drunk, but the 135 budget is reimbursed by the State to a large extent, more than 70% I guess. In fact, Bruce can tell you, that it would actually be, the county general fund probably doesn't put any money into that IV-D program, it's all reimbursed. But in any event, that is my request for today. Any specific questions concerning the job or why we want it, I'll try to answer it or I'll refer it to Bruce. Yes, John.

Mr. Ruge, The IV-D, is that the deal with support getting?

Mr. Douglas, Yes, it is.

Mr. Ruge, IV-D is support and divorces? That's the support?

Mr. Douglas, It's collection of child support, and the filing of maternity actions, paternity actions, rather, essentially.

Mr. Ruge, Does this money come from the State or from the county general fund?

Mr. Douglas, The 135 budget comes from the county general fund, but that money is reimbursed to the County by the State of Indiana to a large extent. And I, can you explain that more?

Mr. Dumas, Sure. The budget for 2004 as approved last year is $351,000. Of that money, $340,000, $344,602 will come back in direct guaranteed reimbursements to the County. That's guaranteed, leaving a deficiency of about $10,000. Last year, the County also received $90,000 in incentive funds, $30,000 each about roughly went to Jim, went to the Clerk, and $30,000 went to the general fund. In addition to that, the state and federal government reimburse the cost of the facility to the tune of about $40,000 per year. I don't have an accurate figure, but when I left here three years ago it was 36, and it's reviewed every two years. I was told it was going to be set at $40,000 or $42,000, but I don't have any guarantee of that.
Lastly, if I may, the Clerk of the Court, and three of the courts also submit for reimbursements, and when I left here, that was anywhere from $15,000 to $20,000 a year. Ms. Stevenson can probably correct me on that as far as the clerk is concerned, but that money also goes back into the general fund when it comes into the county. So in essence, the program pays for itself, and it actually makes money every year. Those reimbursements are submitted each month on the 10th of the month, and the money comes back here within 30 days, 30 to 45 days.

Mr. Carmichael, Any questions?

Mr. Poparad, Yes, do they reimburse us for health care?

Mr. Dumas, Pardon?

Mr. Poparad, Are we reimbursed for health care or are we…

Mr. Dumas, Yes, we are.

Mr. Steele, Just for the premium, Bruce, or for any expenses incurred by that person?

Mr. Dumas, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying?

Mr. Steele, Are we, do they just pay the premium or do they pay any expenses incurred by that person?

Mr. Dumas, They pay the premium that the County pays, it's reimbursed. We submit that for reimbursement every month. In addition to that, they reimburse FICA, they also reimburse the cost of life insurance, and there's one other cost that they pay; social security, retirement is reimbursed, group insurance is reimbursed, the premium for employees. We figure it both ways, if they're on a family plan we submit it at the family rate. If it's a single plan, we submit it at the single rate. Whatever we submit, they reimburse. So, yes.

Mr. Steele, Thank you.

Mr. Carmichael, Okay, further questions? What's the Council's pleasure?

Mrs. Conover moved to approve the 144 Form submitted and amended by Prosecutor IV-D 01.35, Administrative Assistant from $0 to $22,295. Mr. Ruge seconded, motion failed on the following roll call vote:

Conover-YesKnoblock-No
Poparad-NoRuge-Yes
Steele-NoStevenson-No
Carmichael-Yes

Mr. Carmichael, The vote is 4 to 3.

Mrs. Vuko, Yes, sir.

Mr. Carmichael, The motion fails then.

Mr. Douglas, Thank you.

Mr. Dumas, Thank you.

PUBLIC DEFENDER 01.84
144 Form
Deputy Public Defender (3) from $0 to $75,000 - Amended to Deputy Public Defender (2) from $0 to $25,000
Additional Appropriation
$25,000 to 1110 Salaries
$25,000 to 2110 Office Supplies - Request Withdrawn
$10,000 to 3130 Training & Education - Request Withdrawn

Mr. Carmichael, Public Defender.

Jim Tsoutsouris, Good evening.

Mr. Steele, Good evening.

Mr. Carmichael, Howdy.

Mr. Tsoutsouris, I'm sure you're all happy to see me. I tried to outline my position in the letter I wrote to all of you, and there's not much more I can say. I will be glad to answer any questions. I realize that you're in tough spot financially, and I'm very cognizant of that. I'm a taxpayer too.
My staff is at a breaking point, and I'm not going to lose them, and if they reach a point where we, we've exceeded our caseloads, we're going to quit taking cases. That might be next month, and that's all I'm going to say. We need help. No deputy has come to me said, I want more money. They said, I need more bodies.
We need to get our legal training, and we're paying for that out of our pockets. That isn't right, and that isn't fair, that we pay to do this job out of our pockets. That is not right. It's not right, this job is mandated; it's constitutional; and I've been doing it for almost 30 years. I take great pride in it, and I come to you and ask, we need your help. The system needs your help. I'm willing to talk about this in varying degrees. I don't need the whole enchilada, but I need help. I need bodies.

Mr. Carmichael, Is the public defender under one of the judges, or a panel of judges, or how is that operated?
Mr. Tsoutsouris, I'm under contract with the entire judiciary. Every judge has signed my contract, and it expires in two more years. There has been talk about going with the public defender board, and I will be very honest with you, I wish you would. Because if you would, I'd make twice the money, and you'd be broke in two years.
The public defender board is a great idea. We all get paid the same as the prosecutor. We'd get reimbursed 50%, but that's only for felonies. We have misdemeanors, we have CHINS, we have juveniles, we have commitments. Felonies are about 30% of what we do. The other 70% would not be covered under the board. My guess is, it would cost you a million to a million-six to implement a Porter County board. I'm asking really for another $100,000 over a year, prorated over the rest of the year it would be a lot less than that. I need bodies.

Mr. Carmichael, I did investigate that, and I was told the payment or the reimbursement by the State is problematic.

Mr. Tsoutsouris, Yes.

Mr. Carmichael, That there was too many in it.

Mr. Tsoutsouris, On top of that…

Mr. Carmichael, The funds were not there.

Mr. Tsoutsouris, And if you carry more than your caseload, they won't reimburse you. That's the carrot and the stick. They keep you within case limits, and those are the ones that I've tried to outline here. And in all fairness, I'm aware that there are many other public offices in the county that are deserving; I work with them all the time. My staff is comprised of people with doctor's degrees, highly educated, highly committed, that could make a lot more money in the private sector. They do this because they love it, and they're giving back to our community. I need bodies, I need some more deputies.

Mr. Ruge, Is this just?

Mr. Tsoutsouris, Yes, John?

Mr. Ruge, Is this just for the last half of this year?

Mr. Tsoutsouris, Yes, at this time, prorated for the rest of this year, yes, yes. I tried to present my proposal in gross fashion. I can break it down or I can stick with, I'd be satisfied with a couple of deputies, and some increase in my educational fund. I mean I'm trying to put this in on a basis where it's reasonable that we can do our job in a reasonable fashion. I can't lose my valuable people. I just can't do it. They're at a breaking point, and if I reach that point, we're going to stop. I will not lose my people.

Mrs. Conover, Jim, what if you had to stop taking clients, what would happen?

Mr. Tsoutsouris, Well, the judges, I would have to come to you for more money out of the general fund. I mean we use the University. We use pro bono. We go to so many sources to supplement us, but I can't use pro bono, I can't use the University in felony cases, capital cases. Misdemeanor cases, we're all the time going to the University. We got to various sources to help us, and they do as a supplement.
But we're really stretched to the point where is just doesn't make any sense. It just is not right. If you want to talk to me, you talk to, the prosecutors talk to the judges, and they will tell you that they are amazed that we're sticking to this. I've been here too long, and I've had too much commitment and too much loyalty to my staff to lose them. I'm not going to lose them. We'll stop.

Mrs. Knoblock, Well the budgets haven't been approved from the State yet, this year.

Mr. Tsoutsouris, I'm painfully aware of that, I know. I know. As in my letter I pointed out, it's like having kids, they never come at the right time, and this couldn't come at a worse time. I'm keenly aware of that. But there is, the cases have exploded. The mandates continue from the, and the Supreme Court mandates, the legislation mandates, but nobody appropriates.

Mrs. Knoblock, What if we wait until budgets, they're coming up in two months.

Mr. Tsoutsouris, Well that doesn't take effect, if at all, until next year, and this is only June. We've got a half a year to go. My figures are a matter of public record; what we do is a public record. I could have my whole staff here. I could have the judges here, but I didn't want to make a carnival out of it. Yes, John.

Mr. Ruge, Would the county general fund be reimbursed from the state funds?

Mr. Tsoutsouris, No.

Mr. Ruge, No, then it's not like the prosecutor?

Mr. Tsoutsouris, Not at all, no. We don't have that benefit, no. You would get reimbursed if it went to the public defender board, but I'm telling you, that would be the wrong path. And I realize this is not a very popular thing, who wants to pay money to defend criminals. I've been through all the arguments. The Supreme Court has spoken, and we're all bound by it. The judges, I've talked to them at length. They're very sympathetic. They try to cut down on the appointments as much as they can, but they have a mandate too. When people ask for a public defender, they're entitled to get them. There we are.

Mr. Carmichael, Okay, you've heard the case, is there any questions?

Mr. Poparad, I'm going to throw something out for discussion. Would two now get you through until the rest year, and at budget time address the rest?

Mr. Tsoutsouris, Yes, yes, that's correct. If I could get…

Mr. Poparad, Because you're defending, are these, I'm going to use the word indigent people that you have to defend?

Mr. Tsoutsouris, Yes. They're indigents and commitment hearings, they're in Logansport Hospital. I conduct about five of those myself a week. We have determinations of parental rights. We have, it's an amazing process, let alone the obvious criminal cases, we do a lot of ancillary things that we're mandated to do. Yes, if I had two deputies at this point for the rest of the year, it would help me immensely.

Mr. Poparad, These people, they're $25,000 a year?

Mr. Tsoutsouris, Yes.

Mr. Poparad, So basically, they're, I'm not choosing the right words. They're not full-time. They also have a private practice.

Mr. Tsoutsouris, They would, to survive they'd have to.

Mr. Poparad, I mean on this list that you have.

Mr. Tsoutsouris, Yes.

Mr. Poparad, I think you really only had actually two or three full-timers or two? Or what I would consider full-time.

Mr. Tsoutsouris, Yes, yes.

Mr. Poparad, The rest have an outside practice.

Mr. Tsoutsouris, Yes.

Mr. Poparad, And these just help, for lack of a better word.

Mr. Tsoutsouris, Yes, yes. Just done by necessity. Kathy Evans and Delores Aylesworth, the two of them, they're so immersed in their work. Kathy Evans lives at the Juvenile Center. Thank God her husband works, and they get the job done. But can you imagine what you have to pay in postage, your own secretary, your own Xerox, your own computers, out of your own pocket. It just isn't there.

Mr. Steele, Jim, are there any timecards on each individual indigent case for these people? Do they keep a card--I spent so many hours on so-and-so, and so-and-so--or not?

Mr. Tsoutsouris, No, there's no requirement for that, but you can look, if you came to spend a day with me, come to court, there's little time for cards. I mean it is, we move these cases, we've got a lot of appointments.

Mr. Ruge, Would this, would this, like the $50,000 annual, say…

Mr. Carmichael, What's the total cost next year?

Mr. Ruge, It's only for $25,000 for the rest of the year?

Mr. Tsoutsouris, For the rest of the year for two deputies, that's right. My guess is for next year…

Mr. Ruge, That would be yearly, it's not, you're not asking it now, but that would be on the basis of $50,000 annual salary?

Mr. Tsoutsouris, For two, the two deputies, yes. My guess is, for next year I would like to ask for a total of $75,000, which would be either two deputies, and money for my education fund, because we have to go to these seminars, and some of them are three days in Indianapolis for the death seminar. These are expensive. They're $500, $600, $700 that comes out of our pockets. There's just not enough money to go around, and it's mandatory that we have these. But for the balance of this year, would I be satisfied with two deputies, absolutely.

Mr. Ruge, Is your office falling behind in work to, to defend these people?

Mr. Tsoutsouris, John, we're at the point…

Mr. Ruge, You can't carry out your responsibilities for the, defend, that are indigent?

Mr. Tsoutsouris, Here's my problem…

Mr. Ruge, Justice, being short-changed? Justice is being short-changed?

Mr. Tsoutsouris, Justice is being short-changed. Let me give you an example. We have these cases that require depositions, and they're required, my deputies, there's no room in the next two months for depositions. On top of that, there are new case sets with drug deals, and they charge us for these. The last case was 75-bucks. We don't have 75-bucks. I don't have any money in my budget for these things. So I don't know where we'll get it from.
I mean these things cost money. We cannot take depositions, we don't have the time for them, and I don't want the County to get sued one of these days because preparation wasn't adequate, and a person was convicted because the proper steps weren't. These people take a lot of pride in their work. My office, I have my files alphabetical, not by public defender or private. Everybody is entitled to get the best we can give them, and that's my reputation, and that is why this program is very laudable, and to do it, it takes time. Time and time, and you know, we're really part-timers, but when you're closed for election day, we're at the county jail. On Saturdays we're at the office. On Sundays we're preparing for trial. I mean, and they're, I could go on and on and on.

Mrs. Conover, They are there at 5:30 in the evenings too.

Mr. Tsoutsouris, Always, yes, it's just, that's just the nature of, and I know you appreciate that, and I know this, if you had it, you'd give it to me, I know you would. These are tough decisions, but I will appreciate what I can get.

Mr. Carmichael, Okay, anyone else? John, you've got something else?

Mr. Ruge, Do you consider this request based on an emergency? An emergency?

Mr. Tsoutsouris, John, it's as close to an emergency as I've had in my 28 years. I was appointed in 1970, and I've never had deputies come to me, as they've come to me, exhausted and say, I've had it. I've never had this before. And I've talked to the judges, and they said, by God you're right. I look at last year, and I look at this year, they caseload, I didn't realize how much it went up. We get 80% of the felonies, that's it. We have a lot of cases, a lot of work. Yes, this is as close as I can get to an emergency without, I mean to me a real emergency is being in mid-flight and losing an engine. That's a real emergency. But this, in my work, is as close I can get, yes. John, I tried to explain that I'm to the point, I've never in my entire career as a lawyer said we're going to stop taking cases. I have a commitment to my profession, and my courts, but I'm at that point.

Mr. Carmichael, Okay. The Council has heard the request, what's your pleasure? Is there a motion?

Mrs. Conover, Jim, do these employees need health care benefits? These particular new employees?

Mr. Tsoutsouris, These new ones would not necessarily. But I will say this, the ones that I have, half of them don't have them, don't use the County's insurance.

Mrs. Conover, I know.

Mr. Tsoutsouris, But if it's expeditious, financially, the condition would be for these positions that they do not carry the insurance at this point in time.

Mr. Poparad, I was under the assumption they weren't on the insurance because this is a part-time position.

Mrs. Conover, Well it's considered part-time, but I think that Jim some years ago documented hours, and some of them were deemed part-time.

Mr. Poparad, Then we need to classify them as full-time then.

Mrs. Conover, Well, we don't pay them full-time, let's put it that way. A lot them put in…

Mr. Tsoutsouris, Yes, you don't pay full-time.

Mrs. Conover, Yes, but a lot of them put in full-time hours.

Mr. Poparad, I mean it looks like you've got an oxymoron going on here.

Mr. Tsoutsouris, Exactly, exactly. We don't quite fit the mold, and we did keep timecards at one time, but they piled up so much nobody every read any of them.

Mr. Poparad, On the list you handed us.
Mr. Tsoutsouris, Yes, sir.

Mr. Poparad, How many are on the health insurance, just for my education? Just give me number, you don't have to give me names.

Mr. Tsoutsouris, I would say 60% are on our insurance, and 40% are not. Many of them, their wives or spouses are school teachers, so they're on that. In my office of the deputies we have, my office carries insurance for two deputies.

Mr. Poparad, Right.

Mr. Tsoutsouris, That we pay out of our pockets.

Mr. Poparad, Right.

Mrs. Conover, Alright, so your request then this evening is for two for the balance of the year, and we'll address the other issue at budget time?

Mr. Tsoutsouris, Yes, at budget time.

Mrs. Conover, And please, be mindful that if this board should approve this tonight, we've not got state approval. It might sit on a desk downstate for a month.

Mr. Tsoutsouris, I understand. We haven't got last year's budget that I'm aware of, approved by downstate, so. It's the nature of the beast, I understand that.

Mrs. Conover, So two deputies for the balance. What is the end-line financial? What did we figure?

Mr. Poparad, What do you need, $50,000?

Mr. Tsoutsouris, For the balance of the year, 25 a piece, it would be 50 prorated by…

Mr. Poparad, Well 25 for the year then; for the rest of the year.

Mr. Tsoutsouris, Right, right.

Mrs. Conover, Okay, $25,000 for two deputies.

Mrs. Conover moved to amend the 144 Form submitted and amended by Public Defender 01.84, two Public Defender Deputies at $25,000; and approve the request for additional appropriations submitted and amended, $25,000 to 1110 Salaries. Mr. Poparad seconded.

Mr. Carmichael, A motion and a second. Further discussion?

Mr. Poparad, Do you have any way, and I guess I'm being naïve here. But there's no way to recoup any of your costs? Do the judges have these, and I use the word indigent people, is there a mechanism even out there?

Mr. Tsoutsouris, Bob, yes, there is a fund, and those who are quasi-employed are paying into the public defender fund, and it's segregated here at the county level. It doesn't go into the general fund. The statute that sets it up, sets it up specifically, and we cannot touch it. I cannot touch it for salaries; I cannot touch it for anything else; I cannot touch it for education. It's there for ancillary matters. For example, if I need a psychiatrist in a case, the judges have to pay for them out of that fund. If I need a court reporter, those kinds of costs. They come under that.

Mr. Poparad, How much is in that fund, Sandy? Do you have that?

Mrs. Vuko, Pardon me?
Mr. Poparad, How much is in that fund? Do you happen to know?

Mr. Tsoutsouris, At one time there was about $15,000 in there, because Judge Webber used to keep track of it.

Ms. Riley, Do you know what fund number it is?

Mr. Poparad, I don't know. The public defender's fund. I'm curious, that's all.

Mr. Tsoutsouris, It was about 15 when I last looked at it; that's been about a year ago.

Mr. Carmichael, You'd have to have it…

Mr. Tsoutsouris, Clearly I cannot touch it.

Mrs. Vuko, Jim, do you know what fund number you are?

Mr. Tsoutsouris, It's not under my name.

Mr. Carmichael, Is it important, Bob?

Mr. Poparad, No, I'm just curious. I'm just surprised there's a fund sitting there, but…

Mr. Tsoutsouris, There is a mechanism, but it's not as helpful as you would think it is, yes.

Mr. Carmichael, You're not sitting on $700,000 or anything.

Mr. Tsoutsouris, Not when I last looked.

Ms. Noll, Is it 213?

Mr. Poparad, That's alright, it's not important.

Mr. Carmichael, That's alright, Sheila.

Mr. Tsoutsouris, I'd like to know too what it is.

Ms. Noll, Is that the public defender restitution fund?

Mr. Tsoutsouris, Yes.

Ms. Riley, Yes.

Ms. Noll, The 213, there was $30,370.43. On your sheet, it's 213, Sheila.

Ms. Riley, $31,312.43.

Mr. Carmichael, Okay, you have your answer. Since this is an additional appropriation, I'll call for a roll call.

Motion carried on the following roll call vote:

Knoblock-NoPoparad-Yes
Ruge-YesSteele-No
Stevenson-NoCarmichael-Yes
Conover-Yes

Mrs. Vuko, It passed 4 to 3. Oh no, it's got to be 5 to 2 to pass.

Mr. Carmichael, It's what?

Mr. Hollenbeck, Four votes.

Mrs. Vuko, Are you sure, because we read…

Mr. Steele, David, what is the law on that?

Mrs. Vuko, The statute says 5 to 2.

Mr. Hollenbeck, I believe it is four affirmative votes is what it takes.

Mr. Steele, Where does the 5/2 come in?

Mr. Hollenbeck, I don't, do you have something?

Ms. Riley, Jan brought us something that said 5/2.

Ms. Noll, I have been asked that, and it's like I don't know. I have no idea.

Mr. Hollenbeck, Well the vote is 4 to 3, we'll determine whether it passed here in a second. Go on with the rest.

Mr. Carmichael, It's 4 to 3, record the vote.

Mr. Hollenbeck, Record the vote.

Mr. Carmichael, We'll get a decision on it later.

Ms. Riley, Okay.

Mr. Tsoutsouris, Thank you. Thank you for your time.

Mr. Carmichael, Nothing is for sure. Check with the auditor's office before you make any move.

Mr. Tsoutsouris, Yes.

Ms. Riley, What about his other additionals?

Mr. Carmichael, Training & Education?

Ms. Riley, You've got Office Supplies and Training & Education.

Mr. Carmichael, He eliminated that.

Mr. Tsoutsouris, I've withdrawn that at this point.

Ms. Riley, Okay.

Mr. Carmichael, Okay. Are you clear?

Ms. Riley, Yes.

Mr. Carmichael, Okay, thank you.

Mr. Tsoutsouris, Thank you very much.


CIRCUIT COURT 01.81
Additional Appropriation
$5,000 to 3110 Legal
$1,000 to 2110 Office Supplies

Mr. Carmichael, Circuit Court; anybody seen Mary Harper.

Mrs. Conover, Yes.

Judge Mary Harper, No.

Mr. Carmichael, Oh yes, there she is hiding back there. What do you need, $5,000 to Other Legal, and $1,000 to Office Supplies.

Judge Harper, Right. The $5,000 has a…

Mr. Carmichael, You know if you talk more than five minutes your chances of getting passed are…

Judge Harper, Each extra minute I lose a grand.

Mr. Carmichael, That's right, it just keeps going down.

Judge Harper, You approved the $5,000 last fall for the Legal, but some how in the, we filed a claim, but the budget hadn't been approved, so it didn't get paid, and the deadline passed, and this is the same $5,000 you approved last fall that we didn't spend, and the bills are still there. So I was hoping that we might be able to pay those pretty soon.

Mr. Carmichael, Okay, thank you very much. What's the Council's pleasure?

Mr. Steele moved to grant the request for additional appropriations submitted by Circuit Court 01.81, $5,000 to 3110 Legal and $1,000 to 2110 Office Supplies. Mr. Ruge seconded.

Mr. Carmichael, Questions?

Mrs. Knoblock, Does this come out of the general fund, Mary?

Judge Harper, Yes it does.

Mr. Carmichael, Roll call.

Motion carried on a unanimous roll call vote.

Mr. Carmichael, See ya, kid.

Judge Harper, Is that it.

Mr. Carmichael, Go back to work.

Judge Harper, No, I think I'll stick around to see what happens later.

Mr. Poparad, Are you going to stick around?

Judge Harper, Yes.

Mr. Poparad, Thank you.

Judge Harper, Thank you.

JUVENILE DETENTION 01.80
Transfer
$3,350 from 1110 Salaries to 3130 Training & Education - Amended to $1,800
$1,000 from 1110 Salaries to 4440 Furniture & Fixtures over $100

Mr. Carmichael, Juvenile Detention, transfer of funds. You need $3,350 from Salaries to Training & Education, and $1,000 from Salaries to Furniture & Fixtures over $100, to cover expenses for staff training, first aid, CPR, food handler certification and related expenses; to purchase a medication cart that will be secure and mobile to assist with medical distribution. Thank you for the consideration. I hear you're the man of the year out there.

Ken Perkins, Thank you. I actually would like to change and lower the number on one of those transfers.

Mr. Carmichael, Which one?

Mr. Perkins, The $3,350 from Salaries to Training, I'd like to lower that to $1,800.

Mr. Carmichael, One thousand…

Mr. Perkins, Eight hundred.

Mr. Carmichael, $1,800; you did that on purpose because you know we like to get it lower, right. No, I'm kidding you.

Mr. Perkins, No.

Mr. Carmichael, Okay, does anyone have questions?

Mr. Poparad moved to grant the request for transfer of funds submitted and amended by Juvenile Detention 01.80, $1,800 from 1110 Salaries to 3130 Training & Education, and $1,000 from 1110 Salaries to 4440 Furniture & Fixtures over $100. Mrs. Conover seconded, motion carried on a unanimous voice vote.

Mr. Carmichael, Thank you, Ken.

Mr. Perkins, Thank you.

PARKS OPERATING 127.85
Additional Appropriation
$1,000 to 1120 Hourly
$100 to 1210 FICA
$1,870 to 3980 Event Expenses
$3,000 to 1121 Interpreter/Educator
$230 to 1210 FICA

Mr. Carmichael, Parks Operating, Ed Melendez.

Ed Melendez, Good evening.

Mr. Carmichael, How did the Gaelic Festival go?

Mr. Melendez, It went well. A little cold, but a nice turnout for what the weather offered.

Mr. Carmichael, Alright.

Mr. Melendez, What we have tonight is the 127.85 account. This is not general fund money; this is the money we receive from the Tourism, or the innkeepers' tax. The first line is the 127.85 for $1,000 into the 1120 Hourly; 127.85 for $100 into the 1210, which is FICA; and the 127.85, $1,870 to the 3980 Event Expenses.

Mr. Carmichael, Okay.

Mr. Poparad moved to grant the request for additional appropriation submitted by Parks Operating 127.85, $1,000 to 1120 Hourly, $100 to 1210 FICA, and $1,870 to 3980 Event Expenses. Mrs. Conover seconded, motion carried on a unanimous roll call vote.

Mr. Melendez, The next line item we have is in the same 127.85 account. This is not general fund money, this is from our non-reverting fund. We're allocating it to the line items, $3,000 into the 1121, which is the Interpreter/Educators, and we are doing $230 into the 1210, which FICA fund, and this is to pay for our summer educator programs.

Mr. Poparad, Is this the tourism money, no, this is the non-reverting fund you said.

Mr. Melendez, Yes, it is.

Mr. Poparad moved to grant the request for additional appropriation submitted by Parks Operating 127.85, $3,000 to 1121 Interpreter/Educator, and $230 to 1210 FICA. Mrs. Conover seconded, motion carried on a unanimous roll call vote.

PARKS 01.85
Transfer
$55 from 3950 Contractual Services to 4510 Data Processing Equipment

Mr. Carmichael, Did you include the $55?

Mr. Melendez, This is the transfer, no, I haven't got to that, and that is in the 01.85 account for $55 into the 3950, which is from Contractual Services and going into the 4510. This is for data processing equipment. This is for one bi-port switch to connect our educators and special event computers to the Internet service.

Mr. Carmichael, Is there a motion?

Mr. Poparad moved to grant the request for transfer of funds submitted by Parks 01.85, $55 from 3950 Contractual Services to 4510 Data Processing Equipment. Mrs. Conover seconded, motion carried on a unanimous voice vote.

Mr. Carmichael, Motion carries.

Mr. Melendez, Please keep in mind, November 21st or 19th, we will have our Holiday Lights Festival. Maybe we'll see the 75, 80 degree temperature that we haven't gotten this spring or summer. Thank you.

Mr. Carmichael, Yes, okay, you're right, Ed.

HEALTH BIOTERRORISM 238
Additional Appropriation
$3,000 to 3620 Buildings & Structures
$6,000 to 4440 Furniture & Fixtures over $100

Mr. Carmichael, Health Department, Keith.

Keith Letta, Tonight, this is for the bioterrorism fund--the federal money; $3,000 to Buildings & Structures for the remaining architectural cost for the project, and $6,000 for the furnishings--Furniture & Fixtures over $100--the furniture for the room, the projection screen, cabinets, etc.

Mr. Carmichael, Okay, what's the Council's pleasure?
Mr. Poparad, Can I ask a question?

Mr. Carmichael, Question.

Mr. Poparad, I understand the furniture, but what are we remodeling here? We're paying Design Organization $3,000 to remodel.

Mr. Letta, That's the architectural cost for Design.

Mr. Poparad, They designed this?

Mr. Letta, The remodeling on the space.

Mr. Poparad, Where, downstairs?

Mr. Letta, Yes.

Mr. Poparad, Oh, okay.

Mr. Letta, Next to, there's a little room--for lack of a better word--next to the vending machines.

Mr. Poparad, Yes, okay.

Mr. Letta, That's the space.

Mr. Poparad, And this is the remodeling cost?

Mr. Letta, Yes.

Mr. Poparad, It's not to pay the architect, this is the…

Mr. Letta, No, this is for the…

Mr. Poparad, Well the way I, unless I'm reading it wrong. Okay, that's fine.

Mr. Letta, This is for the architects, yes.

Mr. Poparad, That's not for the work to be done?

Mr. Letta, No.

Mr. Poparad, Where is the money for the work to be done?

Mr. Letta, That was appropriated last month or the month before, possibly in May.

Mr. Steele, How big is this space, Keith, 10 x 10, 10 x 12?

Mr. Letta, Maybe 10 x 12 or maybe 10 x 14.

Mr. Steele, And $6,000 worth of furniture.

Mr. Letta, Table, conference table and chairs, a built in projection screen, chalkboard, cabinets.

Mr. Steele, Do we not have any other facilities in the building like that with a screen and a chalkboard and so forth?

Mr. Letta, Not that I'm aware of.
Mr. Carmichael, Any further questions? What's the Council's pleasure? Do I have a motion?

Mrs. Conover moved to grant the request for additional appropriations submitted by Health Bioterrorism 238, $3,000 to 3620 Buildings & Structures, and $6,000 to 4440 Furniture & Fixtures over $100. Mr. Ruge seconded.

Mr. Carmichael, These are out the Bioterrorism Fund 238.

Mr. Letta, Correct.

Mr. Carmichael, Okay, it's not county general.

Mr. Letta, No.

Mr. Carmichael, No, okay.

Mr. Letta, And these funds are here.

Mr. Carmichael, They're here onsite.

Mr. Letta, The funds are here.

Mr. Carmichael, Okay, roll call.

Motion carried on a unanimous roll call vote.

Mr. Letta, Thank you.

Mr. Carmichael, All set, thanks, Keith.

MOTION CLARIFIED - PUBLIC DEFENDER

Mr. Hollenbeck, Mr. President, could I intervene for a moment?

Mr. Carmichael, Absolutely. Go ahead, David.

Mr. Hollenbeck, To clarify the issue. Both the approval of additional appropriations, and the addition of an employee by way of approving the 144, pursuant to IC 36-2-5-13 occur by this body engaging in a majority vote, not in a super majority vote.

Mr. Carmichael, Okay, I know there are some circumstances where a super is necessary.

Mr. Hollenbeck, Well, actually the, yes, you're right, occasionally.

Mr. Carmichael, But not in this case.

Mr. Hollenbeck, But not under either of these two conditions, so the 4 to 3 vote would mean that the 144 and the additional appropriation are both approved.

Mr. Carmichael, Thank you, Dave.

Mr. Hollenbeck, And to the extent if you want to know, the confusion was caused by reference to an October 1999 State Board of Accounts guidance document that was drafted before the law was changed.

Mr. Carmichael, Okay.

Mr. Hollenbeck, So the law has been changed since the reference in this document.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay, we'll now hear from the County Surveyor.

SURVEYOR 57
Additional Appropriation
$6,000 to 1120 Hourly

Mr. Carmichael, Kevin.

Kevin Breitzke, Yes, it's that time of the year where we need to replace the lines that were lost due to road construction, new construction, and utilities. I need to transfer $6,000 out of Fund 57 for part-time help. That also includes the FICA, and, you know, the other costs

Mr. Carmichael, A transfer or additional?

Mr. Breitzke, Well, they call it an additional, but we have the section corner perpetuation fund which helps us.

Mr. Carmichael, Alright, will that require a roll call?

Mrs. Vuko, Yes.

Mr. Carmichael, Alright, you heard the request for the Surveyor. Are there any questions?

Mrs. Knoblock, This is to redo some of them, you say?

Mr. Breitzke, To replace them.

Mrs. Knoblock, Replace them.

Mr. Breitzke, They've been obliterated, and it perpetuates the monumentation.

Mrs. Knoblock, That wouldn't be the developer's problem?

Mr. Breitzke, No. No, this is largely due to road construction; the utilities that go along with road construction, and so forth. There are cases where on some of the bigger highway projects, I've gotten, the cities put it into their contracts under our supervision. But for the most part it's a constant maintenance issue, and that's why the state created this for the surveyors. The money is already there. It's not out of the general fund, it's out of the section corner perpetuation fund.

Mr. Carmichael, Okay.

Mr. Poparad, How is that funded?

Mr. Breitzke, Pardon?

Mr. Poparad, How is that funded?

Mr. Breitzke, Through the recordation there's x-number of dollars per fee that goes into that.

Mr. Poparad, Okay.

Mr. Carmichael, No further questions?

Mr. Poparad moved to grant the request for additional appropriations submitted by Surveyor 57, $6,000 to 1120 Hourly.

Mr. Carmichael, There's a motion on the floor, John. Hold it just a minute. Is there a second?

Mr. Steele and Mrs. Knoblock seconded.

Mr. Carmichael, John, you had a question.

Mr. Ruge, Do you consider this an emergency?

Mr. Breitzke, Yes, because we need these monuments to keep working, and mainly for progress.

Mr. Carmichael, Any further questions? Roll call.

Motion carried on a unanimous roll call vote.

Mr. Breitzke, Thank you.

Mr. Carmichael, Thanks.

CENTER TOWNSHIP 01.10
Transfer
$10,000 from 3950 Contractual Service to 1120 Hourly

Mr. Carmichael, Center Township, is Susan here?

Mrs. Knoblock, Yes.

Susan Larson, Good evening.

Mr. Carmichael, Request for a transfer of $10,000 out of your contractual. I understand you are going to do it yourself.

Ms. Larson, I don't have a choice. $10,000 is not enough to hire anyone to do my commercial, and so, I know I can't get an additional, and I need part-time money to pay summer employment now that I've got it. So I'm using it for that, and I will try to get it done.

Mr. Carmichael, Okay. Rita, did you have input on that?

Mrs. Stevenson, No.

Mr. Carmichael, Anyone else?

Mrs. Knoblock, This is out of reassessment money?

Ms. Larson, No, this is out of the general fund.

Mr. Carmichael, It's…

Ms. Larson, I have $10,000 to do contractual. Usually I hire someone in to do my commercial work. I had 600 appeals, I've got a couple hundred of them settled. There's not enough time in the day or night to get all this done in time. I'm going to do the best I can.

Mr. Poparad moved to grant the request for transfer of funds submitted by Center Township 01.10, $10,000 from 3950 Contractual Services to 1120 Hourly. Mr. Steele seconded.

Mr. Carmichael, Are there any further questions?

Mr. Ruge, Is this, this isn't part of the reassessment?

Mr. Steele, No, John.

Ms. Larson, It's part of my regular budget.

Mr. Steele, It's part of her job.

Ms. Larson, I didn't add any.

Mr. Carmichael, No further questions? Those in favor of the transfer, answer by the usual sign of aye.

Motion carried on a unanimous voice vote.

Mr. Carmichael, Motion carries. Thank you, Susan.

Ms. Larson, Thank you.

WESTCHESTER TOWNSHIP 01.12
Additional Appropriation
$6,000 to 1120 Hourly

Mr. Carmichael, Westchester Township, Ms. Candy Crone.

Candy Crone, Yes, hi.

Mr. Carmichael, You need $6,000 to your hourly account.

Ms. Crone, Yes, I'm going to go ahead and try to hire someone at least through, from August through December. I thought this would pay the part-time salary for someone to work maybe 29 hours a week, instead of trying to go full-time. Right now I do have some in Hourly now, but it's earmarked for data collection. I may have to transfer some later on for Contractual Services, and I do have somebody working part-time through the summer helping us.

Mr. Carmichael, Will this carry you through the end of the year?

Ms. Crone, I hope so. That's what I tried to calculate, I don't think I'll really be able to find anyone until the first of August. So I thought August through December, and then we'll look at next year, I guess, later on.

Mr. Carmichael, I see you have 1,150 appeals.

Ms. Crone, That's right.

Mr. Carmichael, And you've got about 100 of them done. I don't know, as of this report…

Ms. Crone, That's right.

Mr. Carmichael, I don't know what you had to date.

Ms. Crone, Yes, we've, we're closed this week, and have tried to make appointments for the three of us for the, on a base, you know, like a half-hour basis throughout the week to try to take care of as many as we can. I think we're going to do it again in August, try to see how many we can knock out while we're closed during the week. But we've been, it's been pretty successful so far.

Mr. Carmichael, When's my number coming up?

Ms. Crone, We haven't gotten to yours yet.

Mr. Carmichael, I've got the highest. I'm in the highest tax rate district in the county.
Ms. Crone, That, according to the neighborhood ratio, yes.

Mr. Carmichael, As far as assessed valuation.

Ms. Crone, And so am I.

Mr. Carmichael, You're in the same one?

Ms. Crone, That's right.

Mr. Carmichael, But I'm an elected official, and I can't complain.

Ms. Crone, Me too. Somebody asked me if I appealed it, and I said, no.

Mr. Carmichael, No, I don't have an appeal on file either. But I know someone who does. Okay, the request is for $6,000 to carry her through from August to December.

Mr. Steele moved to grant the request for additional appropriations submitted by Westchester Township 01.12, $6,000 to 1120 Hourly. Mr. Poparad seconded, motion carried on a unanimous roll call vote.

Mr. Carmichael, Alright, thanks, Candy.

Ms. Crone, Thank you.

JACKSON TOWNSHIP 01.52
Additional Appropriation
$100 to 3220 Telephone
$10,000 to 1120 Hourly - Amended to $5,000
$250 to 3210 Travel
$250 to 2110 Office Supplies

Mr. Carmichael, Jackson Township, Jan.

Jan Meyers, Good evening.

Mr. Carmichael, Did you have an accident in front of your house the other night? Was that close to you?

Mrs. Meyer, It was down the road I guess.

Mr. Carmichael, Just down the road.

Mrs. Meyers, Yes.

Mr. Carmichael, I read it. Serious?

Mrs. Meyers, Well you read what I read.

Mr. Carmichael, Oh, okay.

Mrs. Meyers, It was flipped over. Is that the one?

Mr. Carmichael, Rolled over.

Mrs. Meyers, I think that it, somebody stole a car.

Mr. Carmichael, Yes.

Mrs. Meyers, Yes.

Mr. Carmichael, Okay, you're asking for, let's see, you need a telephone hook-up.

Mrs. Meyers, No, that's not what I'm asking. My township was only budgeted for $700 for the year for telephone use because I don't make long distance calls. When I'm doing appeals, I have to make long distance calls to people who are out of state. What didn't cross my mind though at the time of this was possibly if I call the switchboard, I might be able to catch onto another local line or something to get out, that wouldn't be taking up the township budget. Well, I'm going to run out of my township money.

Mr. Carmichael, Okay.

Mrs. Meyers, So that's just basically to reimburse the township for long distance calls.

Mr. Carmichael, Okay. You need $10,000 for Hourly.

Mrs. Meyers, That would be extremely helpful.

Mr. Carmichael, What do you have in Hourly this year?

Mrs. Meyers, $1,800.

Mr. Carmichael, $1,800?

Mrs. Meyers, Yes, and that's been gone.

Mr. Carmichael, What are you paying?

Mrs. Meyers, There's eight hours in there, but it's already been spoken for, but I'm, it's like two checks for four hours apiece.

Mr. Carmichael, What are you paying the part-time hourly? You aren't paying…

Mrs. Meyers, My pocket.

Mr. Carmichael, Oh.

Mrs. Meyers, I have, right now I am indebted 47 hours that's going to be out of my pocket if I don't get some money again for this year.

Mr. Carmichael, And you've requested $250 in Travel.

Mrs. Meyers, Yes, currently I have $170. That would be, if you wanted to break that down, that's what, 92 trips to the courthouse. That didn't take into account my March 1st, that was 100-and-something miles. It comes out to 607 miles, but we have to go out onsite and review the appeals, sometimes more than once. We try and put them together when we're doing, you know, when we've got field reviews. Some of them we can do in-house.

Mr. Carmichael, Okay, and you need $250 for Office Supplies. How many…

Mrs. Meyers, That would be nice.

Mr. Carmichael, How many appeals have you heard, and how many are done--completed?

Mrs. Meyers, I have 214 appeals, and in my 26 years prior to that, I had two, total. Right now I am at 70, so about a third.

Mr. Carmichael, Okay, have you turned them in yet?
Mrs. Meyers, No.

Mr. Carmichael, When do you intend to turn them in?

Mrs. Meyers, I intend to turn them in as soon as we have all the, well, we have most of the files, you know, some are already reconstructed, you know, how they're, the settled amount. Some of them still need to have a new property record card, but every time you run up here, I've lost a half hour getting here, a half hour getting home, I have people that are returning my calls, I have to call people for appeals, duh, duh, duh, duh, okay. So it just, you know, I'm going to sit up here, and…

Mr. Carmichael, Well I think it's important that you get those in as soon possible, so the PTABOA board can hear them.

Mrs. Meyers, So far I don't have, I might have one that might not sign off.

Mr. Carmichael, In other words, you've settled those?

Mrs. Meyers, Yes.

Mr. Carmichael, Okay. That report has to be turned in.

Mrs. Meyers, Yes, but I have an appointment Tuesday with Cary to sit down and work up all the cards that I have to date.

Mr. Carmichael, Okay. Any questions of the Assessor?

Mr. Poparad, The $10,000, is that, I've got to be honest with you, it seems a little high for part-time help for the rest of the year.

Mrs. Meyers, Okay.

Mr. Poparad, I mean Candy just asked for $6,000, and Westchester is obviously larger than Jackson, and she has more appeals.

Mrs. Meyers, Right.

Mr. Poparad, She has more help too. But, I'm not saying you…

Mrs. Meyers, Yes. To best address this, this is supposed to be a part-time position, and customarily since, for the last two years, I average over 40 hours week, and it's part-time. I have a township that needs to be addressed, and issues that need to be done; cemeteries to take care of; fire departments to talk to.
There's just kind of not enough hours in the day, and my office is in my home, so that opens me up to 7:00 in the morning phone calls, because people know I get up early. You know, when you farm you get up early. And I have no, I don't have a problem with that. I mean if that's what convenient for the taxpayer, I want to treat them as fairly and as kindly as I can, and if they have to wait until 8:30 at night to call me, and I'm home, and I hear the phone ring, I do it.
And I understand it does, you know, I'm looking at $10,000. I want to get caught up with 2002. There's still not been a chance to review all the cards after they were printed. We have this little list of things that we mark off as we get things done, you know. We need to catch up, back up on the disclosures. We need to copy the cards for the disclosures to prepare for next time. Those are things that we can put off for right at the moment, but we do need to go back to 2002, and address the cards to make sure that each one of them was done correctly; did the information transfer over correctly. So we're backing up.

Mr. Poparad, So who do you, are you going to hire somebody to help you? Is that what this is for?

Mrs. Meyers, Absolutely. Right now my daughter works for me, and I am owing to her 47 hours. For the last two years, she has taken a pay cut so I could get more hours out of her. I want to bring her back up to what she was making before. I mean I just think that's only fair. She has worked long and hard, and last year, this township assessing job cost me $4,700 out of my pocket. That is not fair.

Mr. Carmichael, Do you have a recommendation, Bob? What were you thinking?

Mr. Poparad, I'm going to throw out for discussion, we cut this to $5,000, and see how far it goes, and then if she needs it, she comes back.

Mr. Poparad moved to grant the request for additional appropriations submitted and amended by Jackson Township 01.52, $100 to 3220 Telephone, $5,000 to 1120 Hourly, $250 to 3210 Travel, and $250 to 2110 Office Supplies, and reappear before the Council if additional monies are needed. Mrs. Stevenson seconded.

Mr. Carmichael, The motion is to cut the $10,000 request to $5,000, with the promise that we'll hear you again if you run out, and consider the rest at that time.

Mrs. Meyers, Okay, does that then, the $5,000 cut, will that also include the $250 with Travel and the…

Mr. Poparad, No.

Mr. Carmichael, No, just the one line item.

Mr. Poparad, Just the one line.

Mrs. Meyers, Just the one line item.

Mr. Poparad, Yes.

Mrs. Meyers, So then I can, the receipts that I have that I've paid out of my pocket for Office Supplies, I can bring those to you later?

Mr. Poparad, Well you're getting $250 for Office Supplies, is that what you what?

Mrs. Meyers, Well that's what I was asking. Are you saying the $5,000…

Mr. Poparad, Yes, we are…

Mrs. Meyers, Plus the…

Mr. Poparad, But I do have to ask a question though.

Mrs. Meyers, Okay.

Mr. Poparad, You made a statement that sort of bothers me because, about mileage. Do we pay mileage to public officials?

Ms. Riley, No.

Mrs. Vuko, To the courthouse?

Mr. Poparad, Yes.

Mrs. Vuko, No.

Mr. Poparad, Okay, and nothing at you, Jan, but you made the comment about running back and forth. I guess I'm at a loss here. Are you entitled to mileage? I guess that's my question. You think you are, but I mean…

Mrs. Meyers, I, for 26 years I have turned in, not every trip. I mean I will say that, but if I'm running more cards or doing, not just to come up and pick up my mail, financially conducting, doing, you know.

Mr. Poparad, Yes.

Mrs. Meyers, Because I have to depend on data entry, that's a whole other thing that I don't know if I have to bear that expense or not. I was given it last year in January.

Mr. Poparad, Well I guess I'm going to say something that may not sit well with you, but that goes along with being an office holder. I mean I'll be honest here then…

Mrs. Meyers, But my office…

Mr. Poparad, Then…

Mrs. Meyers, My office is in my home.

Mr. Poparad, Huh?

Mrs. Meyers, My office is in my home.

Mr. Poparad, Uh huh, but your duties require you to come down here, just like mine do. Just like everybody at this table does.

Mrs. Meyers, I mean, to be really honest with you.

Mr. Poparad, Yes.

Mrs. Meyers, If I'm doing it wrong, I would rather do it right. But it's never been addressed in all this time.

Mr. Poparad, No, I mean the amount of money you are talking about is probably not worth discussing.

Mrs. Knoblock, Well don't the other ones get it?

Mrs. Meyers, It's not.

Mr. Poparad, But if we open a can of worms here, Sandy's going to have, you know, 100 mile claims every week.

Mr. Carmichael, Do the other assessors take mileage?

Mrs. Vuko, Yes.

Mr. Carmichael, The answer is yes.

Mrs. Knoblock, I didn't think it changed since I've been one.

Mr. Poparad, I knew we talked about mileage when it came down last year, because we moved their office, and I thought that was the extent of the mileage discussion.

Mrs. Vuko, That was my impression that they were to pay it when they were working up here, but then.

Mr. Poparad, Correct.

Mrs. Vuko, I didn't know that they were…

Mrs. Conover, I thought the employees were getting paid when they were up here, not the office holders.

Mr. Poparad, Correct, that's what I thought we had hashed out last year when they were upstairs, because we practically moved her office. But in the normal course of your duties to do that work, I mean…

Mrs. Meyers, Well my office wasn't moved.

Mr. Poparad, What?

Mrs. Meyers, My office wasn't moved. Yes, John.

Mr. Ruge, This $10,000, that doesn't mean you'd use the whole $10,000?

Mrs. Meyers, It wouldn't necessarily, no…

Mr. Ruge, You just…

Mrs. Meyers, If we could…

Mr. Ruge, You would use the money now you needed?

Mrs. Meyers, I would use what I need. If I'm can get done long before this $10,000, I guarantee you, we're going to get it done.

Mr. Carmichael, We've already cut, the motion cuts it to $5,000, John.

Mr. Ruge, Has that passed?

Mr. Carmichael, We're ready to vote on it if there are no further questions.

Mr. Ruge, I have a, the fact that you asked for $10,000, that doesn't mean you're going to use $10,000? You might use $6,000 or $4,000 or $8,000?

Mrs. Meyers, Yes. It's…

Mr. Ruge, Will you answer a question?

Mrs. Meyers, That's conceivable. What I tried to work with, I need a couple of girls at one time to go do some of the field work. I do all my own field work on new homes, because the taxpayer is going to talk to me, I'm going to answer their questions. So at that point, if it's a time when I'm expecting calls back, then I want someone there to take the calls if I'm out doing field work. Most likely it's going to, I think it's going to be more towards the $10,000.

Mr. Ruge, You might use less than $10,000?

Mrs. Meyers, I might. It might be $9,500.

Mr. Ruge, So you would just use what you needed?

Mrs. Meyers, Well if I'm paying somebody hourly, they're only going to get paid for when they're working.

Mr. Carmichael, The motion then is to recommend the $10,000 figure be cut to $5,000, and the second agrees with that.

Mrs. Knoblock, And she can come back.

Mr. Carmichael, Is there further discussion? Roll call.

Motion carried on the following roll call vote;

Knoblock-YesPoparad-Yes
Ruge-NoSteele-Yes
Stevenson-YesCarmichael-Yes
Conover-Yes

Mr. Carmichael, Motion carries, you got it, kid.

Mrs. Meyers, Thank you.

Mr. Carmichael, Thanks, Jan.

Mrs. Meyers, I feel a little bit better about making her come to work.

Mr. Carmichael, We hope to not see you the rest of the year.

Mrs. Meyers, You don't like me.

Mr. Carmichael, The motion, it was included as an explanation that you can come back and ask us.

Mrs. Meyers, I will do that. I will do that, thank you.

Mr. Carmichael, Thank you.

Mr. Hollenbeck, Was the Telephone and all in that?

Mrs. Conover, No, they're all in it.

Mr. Hollenbeck, Was that part of the motion?

Mrs. Conover, It was part of motion that we do the Travel, the Office Supplies and the Telephone, correct?

Mr. Carmichael, Yes.

Mrs. Conover, Okay.

Mr. Carmichael, The only thing that we changed, the motion changed…

Mrs. Conover, The $5,000.

Mr. Hollenbeck, I got you.

Mr. Carmichael, From $10,000 to $5,000.

Mr. Hollenbeck, I understand.

Mr. Carmichael, Okay.



PORTER TOWNSHIP 01.57
Additional Appropriation
$5,000 to 1120 Hourly

Mr. Carmichael, Alright, we have Porter Township.

Catherine Hall, Hello, Catherine Hall, Porter Township Assessor. I'm passing along a sheet here. I'm requesting an additional $5,000 for Hourly. I turned in my personal property books. I have two appeals left that I haven't been able to settle; they'll have to go in front of the PTABOA. I have settled the rest of the appeals with my taxpayers.
Porter Township is the number one township in the state of Indiana, and we are growing quickly. I have given a list of the major subdivisions, and the number of R-1 lots proposed in each subdivision. This is just the major subs, not our minor subs. They are all large upscale homes, and require more time. If you've seen these new homes, there's not one square house in the lot. They all have, I have one that's 7,000 square feet with turrets and elevators and everything else on it right now that I haven't been able to measure.
In 2001, I had $13,000 in my budget for hourly, and because of the budget cuts, I had, I turned that money in because I didn't need it at the time; I had reassessment money. But now my budget is down to $7,666 for my hourly. In order to keep my hourly person, I need additional funds for the rest of the year.

Mr. Carmichael, Do you estimate that it has to be $5,000?

Ms. Hall, I estimated it to be $5,000 at the max. I honestly can say that I'm sure it won't be. I will probably use less, but I don't know exactly. I'd say probably closer to $4,000.

Mr. Carmichael, Okay.

Ms. Hall, I thought I'd go big.

Mr. Carmichael, Do we have a motion?

Mr. Steele moved to grant the request for additional appropriations submitted by Porter Township 01.57, $5,000 to 1120 Hourly. Mrs. Conover seconded, motion carried on a unanimous roll call vote.

Mr. Carmichael, Okay.

Ms. Hall, Thank you very much.

Mr. Carmichael, Good job. Thanks for the report.

Ms. Hall, You're welcome.

COMMISSIONERS CEDIT 257.30
Additional Appropriation
$50,000 to 0001 CEDIT Project #8 Economic Growth & Development

Mr. Carmichael, Oh, David, how are you doing?

Com. Dave Burrus, I'm doing very well.

Mr. Carmichael Alright.

Com. Burrus, I'm not sure, but this might be the first request for appropriations from the CEDIT funds, that project specifically identified for economic development. What you are receiving there as a handout is a map, and what that's going to refer to is a presentation that the commissioners heard at their first meeting in June from a group of agricultural interests in Porter County, but also in LaPorte and Starke county regarding a proposal by the CSX Corporation to abandon a portion of their rail line that serves the large grain handling elevator facility in Malden, Porter County.
If you look at the map, there is a large inverted T that's a little bit darker in the center of the sheet, and that represents the line in question. It connects Malden in Porter County on the left to North Judson, and Starke County on the lower right, then at LaCrosse in the center of that line it proceeds northerly crossing about every railroad in Northwest Indiana, and finally connects in with the Canadian National and the former New York Central at Wellsboro.
This presentation that we heard was very impressive in the fact that if that railroad is abandoned, it will have a negative impact not only on the market prices that our agricultural people can achieve for their products, but also it will have a negative impact on the cost of commodities that they have to import, namely, and more specifically fertilizer in bulk quantities.
The commissioners heard this presentation. It was made by a number of the individual who are here this evening, and some of them in the back of the room spoke as in support of it as well. Our conclusion was that--and it was unanimous--we support the retention, and the expansion of rail service in Northwest Indiana, literally across the board.
The proposal, and there are some specifics that are available if you are interested in the details, and some of these folks can help us with that. But generally speaking, there's a proposal to create a transportation district for the purpose of operating this railroad. There is a possibility of some federal grant money available to get it launched, and there would be a contracted short line railroad operator involved in the operation of it. It is a group effort between a number of the counties. Porter, Starke, and LaPorte are at least proposing to be involved in it.
In our commitment that we made was subject to appropriation here, a $50,000 contribution to their effort in the form of local support that would be available, contingent upon their ability to secure a grant. So that's where the issue is at this point in time. The commissioners have endorsed it, and we're asking for your approval from our economic development funds.
We have several of our state legislators here with us this evening, and I think Representative Steve Heim is one who is intimately involved in this. Ralph Ayres is here, as well as Nancy Dembowski. So with that, I'll end my presentation, and open it for discussion if there is any.

Mr. Carmichael, Okay, thank you.

Mr. Ruge, This the health department?

Mr. Carmichael, John, before we hear from council members, let's hear from the public.

Mr. Ruge, What?

Mr. Carmichael, I said, before we hear from council members, let's hear from the public first, okay? We'll give them an opportunity.

Mr. Ruge, Oh, okay.

Mr. Carmichael, Ralph, did you want to say something? Or did you want to speak after the public input?

Representative Ralph Ayres, Probably after.

Mr. Carmichael, After the public input.

Representative Ayres, Yes.

Mr. Carmichael, Who would like, from the public would like speak to this issue. Yes, sir, would you identify yourself.

Elwood Grieger, I appreciate your time this evening. It's good to be able to put names with faces. I sent correspondence to you a couple of times over the last couple of months. As you know, in my correspondence with you, I stand in opposition to using tax monies for the LaPorte County Co-op, because so few farmers will benefit from this project purchase of the railroad spur.
I'm not against the railroad itself. The railroad runs through our property. I've been around it for 57 years--my whole life. I've fished on the railroad bridge that runs through my property, but I don't want to use tax money to support it.
I used figures, and you probably know from my correspondence I'm kind of a detail-type person. I use figures that can be substantiated by using data obtained in reports, documents and releases, Indiana Ag-statistics, Surface Transportation Board information, Farm Service Agency, which is the U.S. agency that all farmers in the state of Indiana, and specifically in Porter and LaPorte counties, that we have to tell the acres that we plant, the type of crops grown, and actual production in bushels. And the Porter County office is at the Eastpointe Centre, by the fountain, the big building there, that's where the FSA office is in Porter County.
I farm in Morgan Township along with my wife, and I represent this evening my family, my farmland, hordes, I have some in the back from Porter County, homeowners who live across and near this rail, which is in dire need of repair. It would be two-thirds of a mile of this track that runs through our property is here that I found, 693 rotten railroad ties, in two-thirds of a mile. Four worn out rails, missing or loose spikes, two bad rail unions, plus the railroad bridge that I spoke of earlier. There was 16 of 50 timber ties--that's the big ties on top of the bridge itself--that are rotten.
The first time I walked across it I thought there was six. When I returned, and sometimes when you walk across the railroad bridge you miss the next one, if you ever walked across one. My heel went through a tie, and I'm seeing that this rotten stuff is coming from the inside out. It looks good on the outside, but you can see damage on 16 of them. There's a bad rail on that also, and there are rotten pilings under the bridge, and a 3½ foot area of rail with no support on it because all of the ballast and the railroad bed has washed away, and it hasn't been fixed for a good long time.
You just don't see the maintenance crews the last five years. I mean I've watched maintenance crews when the Chessie System had it, and when the passenger trains run on it a few years back, they had that thing up top-notch. You don't see that anymore. The thing has just continually, continued to deteriorate.
The photos that I sent, plus the other page that I passed out to you, shows the location marker 226 on it. That's the one that I just passed out. I wanted to substantiate so somebody didn't accuse me of maybe taking pictures from somewhere else. It is on my rail section, 226. They say that beauty shows in the eyes of the beholder, and with the quote that Manager Kaesebier in the Michigan City News Dispatch said when he stated that this rail line is in good repair. I guess he's seeing something that I didn't, that I did not see, and we can all see that my photos show that this is not the case at all.
You can read in the Surface Transportation report where CSX states--and that's the information packet that you got this week probably sometime--that the line is in extremely poor condition. That's what they presented to the Surface Transportation Board, extremely poor condition. Ladies and Gentlemen, this is no beauty. It is unsafe, and dangerous to operate a train, let alone transport anhydrous ammonia along this corridor without immediate repair that could cost millions over the next few years--millions. And I'll substantiate some of those figures later.
CSX maintains it would have to have a significant capital expenditure soon if they were to continue to operate, and that estimate was $1,568,000, and that's first, immediate in year, the first year. Then the second year they need a major tie replacement program; grade crossing repairs, maintenance, normal repairs, unexpected repairs, continued railroad bridge repairs and replacement, and other ongoing things.
To this also, Manager Kaesebier is again quoted in the paper as saying CSX is using an inflated high figure only to abandon the line. And I ask you all to look at the Surface Board report that I sent this past week, and remember that CSX at that time also wanted to sell this line to someone, be it a company who specialized in a spur buyout, so why on earth would they inflate costs to repair, and scare away any perspective buyers.
CSX also wants out of this line not only because of the repairs and maintenance costs that they would incur, but also declining volume of railcars on the line that Malden serves. For instance, in 2001, they have 476 cars go in and out--fertilizer coming in, grain going out. The next year in 2002, 447; and at the time of this report in 2003, only 107 cars. These figures are from that report, the Surface Transportation Board report given by CSX.
Why is this? Well, one of the major reasons I believe, and it's not just hitting co-op, it's hitting all local elevators, especially crops, are part of the problem. There are less acres being produced for corn, soybeans and wheat . They're going into commercial tomatoes, green beans, seed corn, seed meats. And this report, I could pull facts and figures off the Internet to show you that too, and if you're interested you can go onto the Indiana Ag statistics and find all this information too.
So let me bring to the point that I began my presentation tonight with, why fund with tax money a rail line that only hauled a little more than 10% of the grain produced in LaPorte and Porter counties in the year 2002;10% of the production, okay. And I can substantiate this, and I have to use 2002, because the 2003 report is not out from the Indiana Ag Statistics until the end of the month or July 1st, so I have to use 2002. This was given to the Ag Statistics from the Farm Service Agency, and in the year 2000, Porter County produced 11,486,000 bushels of corn, soy beans and wheat.
I have to use LaPorte too, because that's where the Wellsboro/Union Mills elevator is, and they also ship by rail, so I have to combine the two. LaPorte County--being a little bit bigger county--produced 19,736,000 bushel of grain for a combined total of 31,222 bushel of grain. Manager Kaesebier stated in a couple of newspaper articles in the LaPorte Herald Argus that three to three-and-a-half million bushel was shipped out on rail. That leaves nearly 28,000,000 bushel that will not be helped out one bit, by helping co-op purchase this rail line. With the proposed $50,000 help for only 3 ½ million bushel of grain, and no help for the majority of farmers that produce the remaining 28,000,000. How much help does this give farmers by the proposed tax help? Please choose a project that helps the majority of us farmers, not just a chosen few.
Let me say this again, I don't want the rail line to close. I just do not. From my co-op friends, and I say friends, I've got farmer friends that live a couple of miles from me sitting in the back, and I also got our group over here that oppose it. We don't want to see the rail line go under, but we don't want to use tax money to do it. It's helping a small segment of the farming community, and it's not helping the whole. And I know what funding is these days, it's tough.
A couple of questions that was brought to my attention that I said I would try to answer tonight. Would the co-op survive is the rail cannot be purchased. And I can only give you a gut-feeling with no real hard statistics to back it up, but in that transportation board report--the Service Transportation Board report--it stated in there that Union Mills and Wellsboro won't lose their rail or the ability to ship grain by rail, because CSX will continue to serve that facility off of their main line. So it would just be the other spur. I know they linked up, and I know all that other business of doing that, but they could, Malden could conceivably truck grain over to Union Mills for a few cents a bushel, especially if they own their own vehicles, and get this done.
I guess I can use an example on this question about will co-op survive. Wanatah Mercantile, probably the closest competitor to Union Mills, and also to Malden, lost its rail line some 20 years ago--the spur--and were competing very nicely with the co-op at this time. We're doing it on grain-bid prices paid to the farmer, also doing it on fertilizer prices. I know our pre-pay price at the Wanatah Mercantile, from what I tried to purchase was probably $55, $45 to $55 cheaper at Wanatah to pre-pay urea, which is nitrogen, and 18-46-0. Cheaper at Wanatah, where they truck the fertilizer in, compared to co-op, which is hauled in on rail.
Another comment that I said that I would try to touch on just a little bit, that semis would gridlock Highway 49, and they've been raised. Take for example, the 100 rail cars that moved in and out of Malden last year in 2003, it takes approximately 35,000 bushels or 3½ semis to fill a train car. This would add only two trucks a day on average for the full year. That's the grain that came out of Malden this past year. And this is what I got off of the Service Transportation Board report, that's where I got my figures, that's the figures I go with, because I'm figuring those are as close to the gospel that I can come up with.
Also, a lot of these semis would not have to go into the Malden complex to get their grain. They could pull off to the farm, and load off the farm, out of the farmer's bins. So that would alleviate further the 49 Bypass, or the 49 corridor. They could use U.S. 421, U.S. 30, Route 6, SR 8, SR 2, whatever, wherever they come off the farm and shoot off the closest route to their destination, which may be the Port, maybe Lafayette, maybe New Energy in South Bend. That's what Wanatah Mercantile does.
I don't think even with ten trucks a day, and I pulled up a report, a highway statistics report from the State of Indiana. Even with ten trucks more a day, you wouldn't notice that in a traffic pattern on the highway. Ten trucks a day isn't much, because they don't travel in a convoy. You know, it would be, a truck would load, another hour a truck would go out, and another hour a truck would go out. It takes 30 to 40 minutes, depending on the size of the farmer's auger, to load a semi.
One of my biggest concerns is safety because I live so close to this rail road corridor--4/10 of a mile, okay. We're close. We heard an engine go last night at 11:00 at night; don't see many trains in the daytime, but we happened to hear this one tooting last night. As I wrote my notes last night, when I wrote these notes up, I got to thinking how anhydrous is one of the most dangerous liquid fertilizers that are used on the farm today. I know, I put it on my crops every year, and on whiff of it, one little poof out of the applicator will bring you to your knees. When anhydrous liquid hits our everyday air that we breathe, it's a cloud of vapor, a gas, it turns into a gas when exposed to the air we breath.
What would happen, now what would happen if a bridge or my railroad bridge would collapse or a rail that's bad--that I showed you in the first set of pictures--would fail while this same engine I heard last night was pulling full rail cars of anhydrous; if a valve releases or break offs, a toxic deadly plume of gas at night while we were asleep, I don't have an answer. I don't have to answer this, I know the answer, and not to make light of it, but please send flowers. That's what would happen, if it happened during the night. In the daytime you'd have a little more time to know what was happening.
I know co-op officials may not say or may say that this can't happen or won't happen, but I truly believe that it can, and it's a real threat to any number of homeowners that are situated along this corridor. And there's some 100 feet away in this Malden corridor. That's the one I'm most familiar with. I guess I can say, do airplanes fly into buildings or does lightening hit golf courses, of course, and it does happen, unfortunately too many times. It can happen here because of this poor rail spur.
I'll end with Shakespeare, to be or not to be, that's the question this evening. I ask in all sincerity, please let it not be, not with the tax money. Thank you. If there are any questions, I will try to…

Mr. Carmichael, Question: your concern on the anhydrous ammonia.

Mr. Grieger, yes.

Mr. Carmichael, How does it get to your farm if it doesn't come by rail to Malden?

Mr. Grieger, I would be trucked. If you buy it from whomever, Bruder Fertilizer or the Co-op or whoever, they truck it into there, they store it in storage tanks, and then they bring small nurse tanks out that hold a couple ton of anhydrous.

Mr. Carmichael, On the highways, with general traffic?

Mr. Grieger, Right, that's just normal. That's, they do it…

Mr. Carmichael, Well that doesn't sound normal to me.

Mr. Grieger, Yes, that's how they do it. That's how they do it, Bruder Fertilizers has done that for years.

Mr. Carmichael, One of those in an accident could kill you with one whiff, is that what you are saying?

Mr. Grieger, One whiff can put you down, yes, most definitely.

Mr. Carmichael, Okay, thank you very much.

Mr. Grieger, It's a dangerous, dangerous farm fertilizer.

Mr. Carmichael, If you'll have a seat back over there somewhere.

Mr. Grieger, Yes.

Mrs. Conover, Sir, thank you for all of the research in your packet. I've been trying to research this issue, and you've opened our eyes to it and everything else.
Mr. Grieger, Thank you very much.

Mrs. Conover, Thank you.

Mr. Carmichael, Anyone else? Marg. Would you defer to the lady?

Dean Kaesebier, Yes.

Mr. Carmichael, Marg, what did you have to say?

Marg Hefner, Well, can I stay here or do you want me…

Mr. Carmichael, No, come on up. You generally don't have much to say.

Mrs. Conover, Just takes notes.

Ms. Hefner, Just shorter, it's just shorter, I've got lots to say.

Mr. Carmichael, Now at the microphone we have Marg Hefner.

Ms. Hefner, Marg Hefner, farmer from Kouts, Indiana, okay. Mine is not quite as long. Time does not allow me to tell you everything I've learned in talking the managers of Malden and LaPorte elevators, including Hoosier Valley Railroad Museum members at the Mint Festival on Sunday.
Aren't' we still agriculture? Will the CSX short-rail line in Porter, LaPorte and Starke counties go to connect the rails to trails, or will be kept to serve the community? Will there be money at the local and state level for trails for recreation, and not for transporting our food and energy? If a railcar holds 3,500 bushel of grain, compared to a semi, 1,000 bushel of grain, shouldn't we save the rail line so agriculture can get their crop out sooner rather than later, risking it to unpredicted bad weather?
In the spring we already have frost laws for heavy trucks to protect our roads from breaking up. How can we put 2,400 more trucks on our roads? My research was from the Post-Tribune article. Isn't this, isn't there a safety concern? At a time when we are trying to deal with traffic, and high fuel prices, and looking to find other ways, don't we have an alternative to putting more trucks on our roads, keep and ship by rail line. Maintenance of the line will have to be worked out. With elevators closing, consolidation and merging, will crops have to be shipped further. Let's save our roads and short-rail line for the economy, food, energy, and a good quality of life. Keep the CSX short-rail line for the welfare of the community.
Today when I stopped at Malden, I got some, a few statistics here: 65 cars, they bring in there at 3,500 bushel per car. That would be 225,000 bushel. That would be equivalent to 235 to 240 truck loads, and their loads go out, they have to go out every 24 hours. I just have a couple of comments to what I have heard previously. I know what an-nitrogen is, and anhydrous, but this can, an accident can happen anywhere on the roads, not just along the rail. I'm for keeping this track. It's a seasonal track, but I think it's going to be a big impact on our area, and I'm for keeping the track.

Mr. Carmichael, Thank you, Marg. This gentleman; would you introduce yourself.

Dean Kaesebier, I am Dean Kaesebier, I'm manager of LaPorte County Farm Bureau Co-op. I do want to make a statement that LaPorte County Co-op is not purchasing the railroad. They are being a contributor to the purchase as Starke, Porter and LaPorte counties we'd hope to be. The actual purchaser of the railroad is the Town of North Judson. Since LaPorte County Farm Bureau Co-op has two grain facilities on the railroad, and two retail fertilizers operations, we thought it would very, very helpful to keep the railroad for LaPorte County Co-op. So we are contributing towards the purchase price of the railroad.
What I am trying to give you, the Council, an idea of, is the effect of not having the rail to the farmers of Porter County. I will admit some of the things that Mr. Grieger said are true, are accurate, and some are not. I would like to mention, not try to go through piece by piece to save some time, but mention if LaPorte County Co-op did handle 10% of the grain produced, by having the rail as an option, that option affects the price of the other 90% of the grain that was sold by truck. If that statement is true, obviously I do not think it's true; Mr. Grieger does.
My statement is though, no matter what, by having the option of the rail to serve us increases the price of all grain. The buyers of grain know what the farmers' options are, and have to bid accordingly. If the rail price is high, and the in-users locally need the grain, they are going to bid high to compete with that price. So I think it's an asset to Wanatah Mercantile to have a rail facility in their area. I think they're looking at it very, very one-side. The second thing is, the statement that there were only 107 cars of grain that were shipped out of Malden in 2003 is very, obviously inaccurate. We shipped unit trains of grains, there are 65 cars on one unit of grain. That would be less than two 65-car units. We did ship seven 65-car units out of Malden in that year. Also, there were some 15-car units, also some inbound units. The combination of Wellsboro traffic, and Malden traffic is going to be the car countage on the short line.
I thought it was interesting to hear the description of the track. I'm very sure you that you can pick out some bad ties on any freight railroad. If it is a passenger railroad that may be very difficult to do. At one time, that rail was passenger rail. But on any freight, and freight only railroad line, you can pick out bad ties. Ties are normally fixed on five-year rotation.
I found it interesting Mr. Grieger's description, because we have just recently received proposals from five different short line businesses that are in the business for short line operations. One was the Indiana Boxcar Corporation, just as a statement, the person, Felix Powell, Felix, who has been in the rail business many, many years did observe this rail line. He estimated that over the next three years there will be a need of $400,000 of special repair and maintenance. Over that period of time it would just be general maintenance besides. But special maintenance, he observed all the bridges, did agree that they were not in as bad as condition as CSX stated in their attempt to abandon the railroad. He said it would take less than $100,000 to repair these railroads, to get them up to grade one rail standing. I might add also, CSX, as Mr. Grieger said, is still using this rail. If it would be as unsafe as was stated, I think a number one rail line would not be using the rail as we speak.
The comment about anhydrous, anhydrous ammonia, we do receive by car at Malden. It is very dangerous. But it's very dangerous whether it's on rail or whether it's received by truck. Each railroad car has four semi-loads of anhydrous ammonia in it. A semi load of anhydrous is about 20 ton; a railroad car is 80 ton. So each time we receive a railroad car of ammonia, it's an equivalent of four semi-loads that are not on the road, on public highways. My opinion is that anhydrous is much safer traveling on rail than it is on a public highway. I might add also, I'm not trying to scare anyone with anhydrous ammonia, LP gas is transferred the same way. My opinion is, LP gas is more dangerous than ammonia, because of the explosion.
These are only a few issues that I would like to point out to the Council that I just, it's difficult for me to listen to that conversation because it's not completely accurate, and not looking at the advantages of having the rail in the area. I will be available for questions, and thank you for your time.

Mr. Carmichael, Anyone else? Yes, sir.

Mark Knebel, My name is Mark Knebel, and I'm the secretary for the Hoosier Valley Railroad Museum down in North Judson. We're on the eastern end of the line in Starke County. Our interest in this, first of all, came from Dave Schelling, Porter County Highway Department. He contacted me about the transportation enhancement program. Dave's concern was the 1,400 trucks on the highway proposed if the Malden facility shut down, and he actually sent a letter to the Surface Transportation Board in protest. And the Hoosier Valley Railroad Museum did also. We were the only two that were submitted to the transportation secretary.
So I researched it, and Dave and I got together, and we decided to form some meetings, and we had our first one in Knox. Our second one was at Malden, and from that meeting we decided to launch an effort with the transportation enhancement program. If you don't know about the program, it's federal money for transportation dollars. Indiana's share is 15 to 16 million dollars, and it can go for roadside beautification, trail systems, and on down the line, historic preservation, and preservation of railroad corridors. We thought, why not preserve the railroad corridor for economic benefits, and tourism benefits, and help the farmers.
This federal legislation encourages non-profit and public groups to get involved with the program. There's where we came in; they opened the door for us. So we got together, we filled out the application, we sent it down to INDOT. This was back in January, and as of yesterday, it has received some of the highest reviews at INDOT. It's actually reached the Lieutenant Governor's office. We had a meeting in North Judson on June 8th, and officials from INDOT, state legislators, and the executive staff of the Lieutenant Governor's office, even the Ag Commissioner office attended this meeting, and everybody was in high support of it, and we're glad that somebody stood up, and more or less yelled and waived their hands in support of saving this railroad line. The multi-modal division chief come up to me and said, he sent some people up here, and couldn't find any interest; and I said, well you were shaking the bushes on the wrong side of the field, you didn't come to North Judson. And he was glad, very glad, that there is support up here for saving this railroad line because he is sick and tired of seeing these railroads tore out in Indiana, and he's tired of seeing the roads getting torn out. Since he is part of INDOT, but he's in the multi-modal railroad division.
So this transportation enhancement program requires local matching funds, and our application was for 1.3 million dollars, give or take, and to really make it successful, that's why we're coming to all three counties, because the line runs into all three counties. The Museum, if it can help out, keep the line in for economic benefits, and for tourism benefits also, because the Railroad Museum would like to access the line to develop tourist train rides, and possibly a dinner train ride sometime down the road, maybe between North Judson and LaCrosse, North Judson and Malden.
This is our part in it, and to speak to the degree of the where on the line--so to speak--the line is currently hauling very heavy cars, 286,000 pound cars. This is high grade, and it is, according to INDOT, is one of the better short line operations once it gets rolling into a short line in the state of Indiana, the line actually contained the Amtrak train called the Cardinal, up until 1986, and that's a 79-mile an hour train--passenger train. It is all heavy welded rail, and of course, when CSX decides to shut down a line, they defer the maintenance; they pull of the maintenance crews. And this justifies to the STB that hey, this line is in bad shape, blah, blah, blah, they'll send a story out. But it is a heavy rail line, and it is, sure it needs some work, but it's not in dire shape. I'd rather see, speaking to anhydrous, I'd rather see it go on a railroad line than four semis downtown, and some terrorist group come in and try to take one out. That's just my thoughts.

Mr. Carmichael, Is that 1,500 pound rail?

Mr. Knebel, It's a 122 pound rail, and the section that does by Mr. Grieger's place, I believe is 131 or 132 pound. The section that goes from LaCrosse up to Union Mills is mostly 112 to 115 pound, welded rail, and very few joints. Jointed rails are much hard to maintain, and much more accident prone that welded rail. So thank you for your time.

Mr. Carmichael, Thank you. The gentleman here, then Mr. Schrader next.

State Representative Steve Heim, Thank you for your time tonight. My name is State Representative Steve Heim, I represent District 17, which is Marshall, Starke, and townships in LaPorte County. The railroad abandonment starts in my district, and it ends in my district. That's why I got involved with this project back in October.
First off, I would like to make one clarification. In Mr. Grieger's testimony, he was talking about a Surface Transportation Board report. There was no Surface Transportation Board report. What he was reading from was CSX's justification for abandoning 32 miles of railroad. And of course, if you want to abandon something, you make the best case possible for abandoning it.
All Class 1 railroads across the country are petitioning to abandon, hundreds, if not thousands of miles of railroad. If you look at the petitions on the STB website, virtually all of them are in small towns. CSX alone in the state of Indiana has petitioned to abandon 300 miles of railroad this year.
And that's important, because our small towns are dying. I would challenge you, if you haven't been in small town recently, drive through a small town, 2,000, 3,000 people, 1,200 people, they're dying. And if you take away half of their transportation network, ie, this rail line, the chances that they will be able to attract new businesses, new jobs, is virtually nil. Because when new businesses look for locations to build a new factory, they're looking at primarily two things, highway access and railway access. Take one of those away, and you're taken off their list entirely.
This is important to the agriculture community, but I would encourage you to step back, take a bigger picture view of this, and look at the economic development opportunities here as well. This could be a very important tool to develop in the U.S. 30 corridor from an industrial and commercial perspective. And if we lose this rail line, it's never coming back. This is a great opportunity to preserve the rail line. It is a, you know, the repair costs are about $400,000 over the next three to five years. We have already had conversations with INDOT regarding a $200,000 rehabilitation grant that would be applied for if we are able to secure the primary grant to purchase this line.
We are aware of the weaknesses, but we're also aware of the great advantages that this presents us, and we would just ask for your support of this project. I would be happy to answer any questions you may have.

Mr. Carmichael, Who is doing the grant application?

Representative Heim, The grant application was submitted by the Railroad Museum, I believe.

Mr. Carmichael, Do you have some expertise working on that? Do you have a regional planning agency in your area?

Mr. Knebel, No. No, we're kind of outside the MPO--so to speak--so we submitted it through the town of North Judson as a local unit of government. They sponsored the application.

Mr. Carmichael, Okay, but you had someone with expertise fill it out?

Mr. Knebel, I filled it out with the help of the T administrator in Indianapolis directly. I met with him twice in person.

Mr. Carmichael, Oh, okay, because that's important. Any deficiencies in that, and you'll be set back.

Mr. Knebel, Yes.

Mr. Poparad, Bill, can I ask a question?

Representative Heim, The chief of the inter-modal transportation division of INDOT has recommended to the commissioner of INDOT that he approve this grant.

Mr. Poparad, So we're, we need matching money to apply for a state grant to buy this railroad for 1.2?

Representative Heim, The total purchase price is roughly 1.9 million dollars; 1.4 to 1.5 would come from INDOT. The rest would come from the local matches from the counties. It would come from the town of North Judson, from Bruder Fertilizers, and from the Railroad Museum as well. So this is very much a public/private partnership trying…

Senator Nancy Dembowski, The Farm Bureau.

Representative Heim, And the Co-op as well.

Mr. Carmichael, Okay.

Mr. Poparad, Okay, educate me on this whole process. CSX wants to abandon it, the government says, no, but yet they want to sell it for 1.8?

Representative Heim, What happens is, the railroad petitions the Surface Transportation Board to abandon the railroad line, and as part of that petition, the railroad has to present its justification for abandoning that railroad. That was what Mr. Grieger was referring to.

Mr. Poparad, Right, right.

Representative Heim, That was CSX's.

Mr. Poparad, Well why don't they just donate it to the Museum?

Senator Dembowski, That would solve all of our problems.

Representative Heim, I think they want the rail.

Mr. Poparad, They want the rail scrap?

Mr. Kaesebier, The reason they wanted the, this is very good rail on this line, as we were discussing earlier. CSX wanted the rail from this line. There was a salvage value put on, on this line, and the 1.9 is the salvage price.

Representative Heim, And the 1.9 million price was set by the Surface Transportation Board. We appealed, the town of North Judson presented what's called an offer of financial assistance, which is an offer to purchase the line. CSX makes it case. The town of North Judson presents its case. The Surface Transportation Board then decides what the final purchase price of that line is going to be. They ruled 1.9 million dollars. We have until the end of July to purchase this line.

Mr. Poparad, Since you are involved in this, what is the Co-op putting up financially?

Mr. Kaesebier, They're putting up $360,000.

Mr. Poparad, And North Judson is putting up, LaPorte County is putting up 75?

Representative Heim, We've requested $75,000 from LaPorte County. The commissioners have approved that. We go before the council next week.

Mr. Poparad, Is this a, if you get the matching local funds, are you guaranteed to get the state money?

Representative Heim, No.

Com. Burrus, It's the other way around, Bob.

Representative Heim, It's the other way around. We need, we need demonstrated support from the local communities before INDOT will give us the grant. I mean that's one of the considerations. If you approve the appropriation tonight, that does not guarantee that we are going to get the grant, but it shows INDOT that we have local support, and they are more likely to give us the grant.

Mr. Poparad, I guess my fear of this whole thing is not the purchase price, it's the ongoing cost--the maintenance.

Mrs. Knoblock, Yes.

Mr. Poparad, Who is going to run it? You're going to contract with a short line hauler, and he's going to have to charge x to maintain. I just don't know. Do the numbers work out? I mean you've got short line people who want to look at this?

Mr. Kaesebier, We have started that procedure. We had put it up for bids. We received five bids. Yesterday we had a meeting, reduced that to three bids, they have a budget in them showing the activity that's been on the tracks, the income that's possible by that activity, the normal repair and maintenance, the operating costs, and show a minor loss, being $2,000 the first year of operation, which includes $60,000 of normal maintenance; second and third years shows a plus bottom line.
Again, with that maintenance, I had mentioned there was going to be some necessary maintenance over the next three years, funds from that operation, and another grant that's been applied for, will cover that.

Mr. Steele, Mr. Kaesebier…

Mr. Kaesebier, There would not be any need for more contributions by local…

Mr. Poparad, Wait a minute, Al, wait a minute. That's my fear here.

Mr. Kaesebier, No.

Mr. Poparad, Well, no, you can sit there and say that. We can all hope that, but when the bridge over the creek fails, somebody from that railroad is going to be running back to you guys, and you're going to be running back to us looking for more money, because this a joint/government/private enterprise.

Mr. Kaesebier, Let's say that's, the worse-case scenario does happen, and we come back, which I say won't happen, you say could happen. You are again going to make a decision. If that would happen; it's not going to. If that would happen, you will have to make a decision.

Mr. Poparad, Well let me say this. Once, if we decide to, let's say this step goes forward, once this step goes forward, there will be no turning back. We will never be able to stop this process once it starts. Now, if this county commits, LaPorte County and North Judson, and this goes through, and they get the grant, these people, we're committed now. This will never stop. Once it starts it never stops.

Mr. Kaesebier, Are you saying what won't stop, coming back and revisiting?

Mr. Poparad, Well, once the process starts, and the rail gets, you know, the short line guys are running it and all that and whatever, and they run into a problem, and there's money needed, you'll come right back to us. Because we can't shut it down now, because we didn't before. That's all I'm saying.

Mr. Steele, Mr. Kaesebier, I have a question, and I hope it doesn't violate your confidentiality on your bids. But has any of the short line companies bid 1.9 million or more?

Mr. Kaesebier, You mean…

Mr. Poparad, They're not bidding to buy it out.

Mr. Kaesebier, They're not purchasing it.

Mr. Knebel, They're not bidding….

Mr. Kaesebier, They're operating it.

Mr. Steele, They're only operating it.

Representative Heim, Yes.

Mr. Poparad, Did you inquire about them purchasing, and sharing in the purchase cost?

Mr. Kaesebier, They're not in the business to own the railroad.

Mr. Poparad, I agree with that, and I don't know if it's the government's business to own a railroad either. That's all I'm saying.

Mr. Kaesebier, When this was discussed prior to this, the Indiana Boxcar Corporation did have an interest at that time to purchase that short line. This time because there was interest locally, they had no interest.
Mr. Steele, Why don't you make them a deal that they can't refuse, and let them buy it too, and operate it? Then if they would do that, you would have the rail line you need; the farmers would have the service they need; and the County wouldn't have to spend no money at all.

Representative Heim, The problem is the grant funds cannot be used to turn this over to a private entity.

Mr. Steele, I'm not talking about grant funds. I'm talking strictly a business deal between you and one of the short-term haulers.

Mr. Knebel, Well we don't…

Mr. Steele, What we really seem to want here is a serviceable railroad to take care of the farmers, and the historical society, and everyone else. So why don't you take this out of everybody's hands, give them a good deal on it, which everybody kind of thought that was a good idea if they donated it to the historical society, and let these people own it and operate it.

Representative Heim, They won't donate it. They want the rail. CSX wants the rail. They don't…

Mr. Steele, But if the price is right, if they can get 1.9, it's a lot easier to have that laid in their hands than to send a crew out there and tear it up, and make 1.9 with it. You know, you can cut a deal with these people.

Mr. Kaesebier, It is worth more to local communities than it is to a corporation. That's the problem with that.

Mr. Steele, But you'll have all the benefits, and you won't be spending as much money. What you want is a railroad, right?

Mr. Kaesebier, They will not spend a million-nine for it.

Mr. Steele, Well, then give them a deal where they will. What you people seem to want is a railroad. Why don't you give someone a deal, and let them own the railroad, and maintain it for you, let them make a profit on it, and you'll have the rail you want. Are we talking about rail or grants or individual ownership here or what? Dave.

Com. Burrus, One thing you can take into consideration, Al, is if an operator buys it, then they're going to have debt service, and that's going to affect there operating for a while. The grant that is being referred is critical for the purpose so that the operating budget will be successful.

Mr. Carmichael, Okay, can we hold it just a minute, because Carole wants to say something. Nothing is coming, except from the end of the table. She reminded me of that.

Mrs. Knoblock, I've got about 13 questions, but some of them have been answered.

Mr. Carmichael, I think its ladies first, so let's hang on there. Carole.

Mrs. Knoblock, Okay, the first one was who owns Malden Elevator, and I take it CSX does, right?

Representative Heim, No, LaPorte Co-op owns the Malden facility.

Mrs. Knoblock, Okay. And LaPorte County Co-op is a private party? Your private business?

Mr. Kaesebier, It's a corporation owned by farmer producers.

Mrs. Knoblock, Is the elevator for sale?

Mr. Kaesebier, Pardon?

Mrs. Knoblock, Is the elevator for sale?

Mr. Kaesebier, No.

Mrs. Knoblock, Oh, because there's been rumors.

Mr. Kaesebier, No.

Mrs. Knoblock, Okay, who owns the railroad, and why are they trying to sell it? Which I already know, CSX, it's has been answered. Who is buying it?

Mr. Kaesebier, The town of North Judson.

Mrs. Knoblock, Yes, okay. Some of these have been answered.

Representative Heim, Can I clarify one point on why, an additional reason that CSX wants to sell this line. Class 1 carriers have adopted business plans that call for them to hookup 100-car train, go 100 miles down the track, drop it off, pick up another 100 cars, go another 100 miles, and drop it off. That's how they're making their money. They don't want to take 50 cars from Malden, and 50 cars from Wellsboro, connect them together, take it out to the main line, and then take it down the track. It's an inconvenience for them, and they're, all Class 1 carriers are abandoning these short lines because of those business plans.

Mrs. Knoblock, Okay, what percent of the taxpayers in Porter County would benefit from this project, as far as using the elevator? Have you thought about how many percent it would benefit?

Representative Heim, Good question; I haven't thought on those terms.

Mrs. Knoblock, And is this $50,000 a one-shot deal, or is that going to be every year?

Representative Heim, One-shot. We need a local match to match the state grant.

Mrs. Knoblock, Okay, do you have a scale down at Malden to weight in cars?

Mr. Kaesebier, We do not have a car scale.

Mrs. Knoblock, How much are the other counties contributing; you already answered that. How much does Malden Elevator pay CSX to move product in and out?

Mr. Kaesebier, I cannot answer that question, because the product, the incoming cars are prepaid by the supplier of the fertilizer, and the outgoing cars of grain is bought at the Malden Elevator. So the freight is paid by either the supplier or the purchaser, not by LaPorte County Co-op.

Mrs. Knoblock, To me, this looks like Porter County Co-op, or LaPorte County Co-op is the only one that would benefit from this; and why don't you buy the railroad?

Mr. Kaesebier, The producers, the farmer/producers are the ones that also benefit from this. I think agriculture is still an important part of the economy of Porter County, and those are the actual people who benefit from the rail facility. And I did mention that LaPorte County Co-op is contributing.

Representative Heim, There are several other businesses that will benefit from this. Bruder Fertilizer will use this. The lumber yard in North Judson wants to receive shipments by rail. So it's not just the Co-op. They are the largest user, but there are other businesses that want to use this line.

Mrs. Knoblock, And then there's another thing, you're really looking at a financially-strapped county, and the economic development money could go for many things here, right here in the County.

Representative Heim, We understand that. This is not a good time to be requesting funds, but we consider this an economic development product, project, that hopefully will have positive economic outcomes for all the counties and communities involved.

Mr. Steele, Rita…

Mr. Kaesebier, If I might…

Mr. Steele, Rita, you're the vice…

Mr. Kaesebier, Some of these questions here…

Mrs. Stevenson, Wait, hold on one minute.

Mr. Kaesebier, Okay.

Mrs. Stevenson, Are you done?

Mrs. Knoblock, Yes, I think so.

Mr. Steele, She is the vice chairman, that's why referred to her.

Mrs. Stevenson, Hold on, John has questions.

Mr. Ruge, Is there any railroad that's interested in buying this Malden?

Mr. Steele, John, it looks…

Mr. Ruge, I figured some railroad that operates a railroad to fix it up, and run it for, is there any railroad who will run that for a profit or you haven't heard of any railroad like the Pennsylvania Railroad or something, buying this, and fixing it up, and run it for a profit?

Representative Heim, The Class 1, the large nationwide railroad…

Mr. Ruge, I don't think the County should, if we're at a loss. Do you hear me?

Representative Heim, Yes.

Mrs. Stevenson, Can you hold on one minute. The gentleman…

Mrs. Knoblock, Mr. Schrader.

Mrs. Stevenson, Mr. Schrader. Mr. Schrader, you wanted to speak, and I would not want you to leave without speaking.

J.F. Schrader, Well I'll be right back.

Mrs. Stevenson, Okay, I just didn't want you leaving before you spoke.

J.F. Schrader, I'll be back.

Mrs. Stevenson, Okay.

Representative Heim, The Class 1 railroads do not want short lines.

Mr. Ruge, Is there any railroad interested in the?

Representative Heim, The large railroads…

Mr. Ruge, Running this piece for a profit?

Representative Heim, The large railroads do not, are not interested, and the short lines don't want to…

Mr. Ruge, You haven't heard of any?

Representative Heim, No. The short, the large railroad companies don't want to own short lines.

Mr. Ruge, The expenses are more than the benefits.

Mrs. Stevenson, Okay, sir.

Vic Heinold, Yes, I am Vic Heinold, and I'm here this evening I'm representing the Indiana Grain and Feed Association, which I am a member of the their board of director, and I'm the immediate past chairman. So what I'm passing out is a little bit of how this effects the industry as a whole, and not specifically the Co-op or Bruder Fertilizer, whatever is down the line.
Particularly in this note, I want to draw the attention to an IDOT survey that was taken recently. It says that 82% of the grain elevators in the state use rail to move the majority of their shipments. That is how important rail service is the grain market place. 64% of grain shippers considered themselves captive to rail. One captive shipper responded that most elevators that lose rail service eventually go out of business.
Carole, we had an elevator in Boone Grove. We lost the railroad. It's gone. We had an elevator in Kouts, we lost the railroad. It's gone. We had an elevator at Aylesworth. These are all South Porter County, for people that don't get south of 30 sometimes. Aylesworth is good as closed, it's not full service.
The Indiana Grain and Feed Association was founded in 1902, and is a non-for-profit, member owned advocacy group that promotes the agribusiness industry in the state. We stand for sound and competitive freight network. We need trucks, railroads, and waterways.
I just want to say for a personal note, as I said, we have one rail system left in South Porter County that comes into Malden. The fact that they buy 10% or 50% or 100% of the grain doesn't really matter. They impact the market in this part of Porter County. From my personal standpoint, it doesn't favor my business either. It raises my input cost. So personally, it doesn't help me, but it does help the agriculture in South Porter County. It does help that large revenue, which pays taxes and contribute to this county. So I think you need to take that into consideration, as a percentage it's bigger than the number of people.

Mrs. Knoblock, Well, Vic, I don't necessarily want to see the railroad taken out. But I don't think that we should have to…

Mr. Heinold, Well, the question of tax money being used to subsidize, our tax money is subsidizing the South Shore, which is moving people to Chicago to work. Again, I have no personal gain from this, but it really is a lot to lose for the farmers of South Porter County.

Mr. Steele, Vic, someone mentioned earlier that the city of North Judson is going to own the railroad eventually.

Mr. Heinold, My understanding is, they are the body that has put the deal together. If you'll explain how it will all be formatted, I'd feel more comfortable if you would do it.

Mr. Steele, My question, I'll get right to my point. If you have a government entity owning anything, as personalities change, some people lose interest, and then if it starts to fall behind financially on the funding, whose going to be taxed--Dave has an answer, I'll just use David. Who's going to continue to support the railroad? And if I was shipping the grain or using the railroad for any reason, and I was relying on this entity--in this case North Judson--to own this railroad, I would think I might consider looking into semis right away. Not to be facetious, it's just a business situation.

Com. Burrus, Representative Heim, will you to speak to that?

Mr. Steele, Sure.

Mr. Carmichael, Thank you, Vic.

Representative Heim, The situation we find ourselves in is the immediate challenge is to preserve the rail line. For that purpose, the town of North Judson has agreed to sign their names on the line to help us buy this line. Another immediate challenge was selecting a short line operator to run the line, because at the end of July, CSX cuts off service. And the Malden facility, and I believe Union Mills, they receive cars on a weekly basis.
So in the interim, the town of North Judson takes ownership, and they have created a rail advisory committee to help go through the selection process for a short line operator. That rail advisory committee includes the chairman of the town board in North Judson, myself, LaPorte County Co-op, Bruder Fertilizer, North Judson Lumber, Hoosier Valley Railroad, LaPorte County Representative Shaw Friedman or whomever the county selects, Starke County, that representative is Terry Kimmel who is the director of Starke County Development Foundation. In Porter County, we have David Schelling down here from the Highway Department or whomever the County should select for that position.
It's that committee that's selecting the short line operator, and will make decisions on maintenance and grant applications in the short term. The long-term ownership, we would like to have a quasi-governmental agency, kind of like the Northern Indiana Transportation Commuter District.

Mr. Carmichael, Just say, NICTD.

Representative Heim, NICTD; we would like to have a NICTD version for freight trains for this short line. That will take a while to set up. We haven't had the time to set that up. Our immediate focus has been on preserving the rail line, and getting immediate maintenance needs taken care of with the additional grant application.

Mr. Poparad, I've got a question. You said, has the petition to abandon the line been approved then by the feds?

Representative Heim, Unless we come up with 1.9 million dollars to buy the line.

Mr. Poparad, So they, the feds have already approved the abandoning of this line.

Representative Heim, Yes.

Mr. Poparad, So the end of July you said…

Representative Heim, Yes.

Mr. Poparad, That they've abandoned the line. Yes, I didn't know that they had approved it. If it's owned by a semi-private government agency, there will be no property taxes paid on this then. Correct?

Representative Heim, Correct.

Mr. Poparad, Which I'm assuming that your short line operator put into his figures, he will not be paying any property taxes. So it's probably negative revenue. I mean in the purest sense of the word. I mean when CSX owned it they paid property taxes on all the rails and…
Mr. Carmichael, Bob, either way…

Mr. Kaesebier, They're…

Mr. Carmichael, That scenario will happen either way.

Mr. Poparad, Well if CSX still owned it they will still pay property taxes.

Representative Heim, No.

Mr. Carmichael, Not if they abandon it.

Representative Heim, CSX will abandon it, they will yank out the rails.

Mr. Poparad, And then what?

Representative Heim, Then there's just an empty rail bed, and then…

Mr. Poparad, What about the property?

Representative Heim, Then Rails to Trails is waiting to take it over.

Mr. Poparad, So we give money to build a bike path--Rails to Trails--but we can't get money to keep this line going.

Representative Heim, We are, we have a grant to keep this line going.