- January 6, 2004
- March 23, 2004
- April 27, 2004
- May 25, 2004
- June 22, 2004
- July 27, 2004
- August 9, 2004
- August 9, 2004 (Special)
- September 28, 2004
- October 26, 2004
- November 30, 2004
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fPORTER COUNTY COUNCIL
Reorganization Meeting
January 6, 2004
The Porter County Council met to reorganize, on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 at 5:00 p.m. in the County Administration Center, 155 Indiana-Suite 205, Valparaiso, Indiana.
Members present were Karen Conover, Carole Knoblock, Robert Poparad, John Ruge, Al Steele, Rita Stevenson, and President William Carmichael. Also present was Attorney David Hollenbeck, Auditor Sandra Vuko, Sheila Riley and Vi Wagner.
The meeting was called to order with the Pledge of Allegiance.
ELECTION OF OFFICERS
Mr. Carmichael, Dave, do you want to conduct the reorganization?
Mr. Hollenbeck, Certainly. I'll take the ceremonial gavel, and entertain a motion for the position of president of the Porter County Council for calendar year 2004.
Mrs. Conover moved to nominate William Carmichael as president of the Porter County Council for calendar year 2004. Mrs. Stevenson seconded.
Mr. Hollenbeck, Okay, you have a motion and a second nominating William Carmichael as our president. Do I have any other nominations?
Mr. Ruge, I second the motion.
Mr. Hollenbeck, Thank you, John. We have two seconds, and a motion that Mr. Carmichael be our president for this calendar year. Any other motions? Any other nominations? Seeing none, we will vote on this one nomination. All in favor, indicate such by saying aye.
Motion carried unanimously.
Mr. Hollenbeck, Let the record show that William Carmichael has been elected the president of the Porter County Council for calendar year 2004. Congratulations, William.
Mr. Carmichael, Thank you.
Mr. Hollenbeck, And I'll hand the gavel back to our president, and ask that he get himself a vice president.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay, at this time I will open up the nominations for vice president.
Mr. Steele moved to nominate Robert Poparad as vice president for calendar year 2004. Mrs. Knoblock seconded.
Mr. Carmichael moved to nominate Rita Stevenson as vice president for calendar year 2004. Mrs. Conover seconded.
Mr. Carmichael, We have two nominations. Is there any further nominations? Do we move to close nominations?
Mrs. Conover moved to close nominations, motion carried.
Mr. Hollenbeck, I suppose the best way at this point would be to first, the first name nominated was Mr. Poparad's, so why don't we see if there are four votes for Mr. Poparad, and if there are, that's the end of it. And if there isn't, then we'll go onto to the second nomination.
Mr. Carmichael, Do you have a roll call over there, Sandy?
Mrs. Vuko, Yes, I do.
Mr. Hollenbeck, So this vote would be whether or not Bob Poparad should be our vice president for the next year.
Mr. Carmichael, Would you call the roll?
Motion to elect Robert Poparad as vice president failed on the following roll call vote:
Carmichael - No Conover - No
Knoblock - Yes Poparad - Yes
Ruge - No Steele - Yes
Stevenson - No
Mrs. Vuko, It's four to three.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay, so what do we do?
Mr. Hollenbeck, Now the next name and nomination was that of Rita Stevenson. Let's do a similar roll call for…
Mr. Carmichael, Would you call the roll?
Mr. Hollenbeck, Rita, and see if we have four affirmative votes for Rita.
Motion to elect Rita Stevenson as vice president carried on the following roll call vote:
Carmichael - Yes Conover - Yes
Knoblock - No Poparad - No
Ruge - Yes Steele - No
Stevenson - Yes
Mr. Hollenbeck, That's four affirmative votes, so Rita Stevenson is our vice president.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay, do you want to do the appointments at this time? Is that the Board's pleasure, before we take up the regular order of business, or do you want to do it at the end?
Mr. Steele, Let's do it now, because these people are waiting, and they can leave.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay.
COUNCIL BOARD APPOINTMENTS
NIRPC
Mr. Carmichael, NIRPC. Carole has requested that. Carole is currently serving on that.
Mrs. Knoblock, No, I didn't request it, but.
Mr. Carmichael, I see your name is on here.
Mrs. Knoblock, I didn't put it on.
Mr. Carmichael, Oh, this is yours, oh, okay. Did you want that position, Carole?
Mrs. Knoblock, Does anybody else want it?
Mr. Carmichael, Does anybody else want the NIRPC position? I think the unanimous consent, do you mind serving on that?
Mrs. Knoblock, No, I don't mind.
Mr. Carmichael, Alright, Carole will serve on that.
NICTD
Mr. Carmichael, NICTD, I have applied for that. Does anyone have a problem with that?
Mrs. Conover, No.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay.
Plan Commission
Mr. Carmichael, The Plan Commission. Bob I think has indicated he'd like to serve.
Mr. Poparad, I'll stay.
Mr. Carmichael, Does anybody else wish to serve as a Plan Commission member? Bob Poparad.
Solid Waste District
Mr. Carmichael, Solid Waste, who serves on Solid Waste currently?
Mr. Steele, I do.
Mr. Carmichael, Al, would you…
Mr. Steele, I'll stay.
Mr. Carmichael, Wish to continue that? Al.
Historical Society
Mr. Carmichael, The Historical Society. Who serves on that currently?
Mrs. Knoblock, No one.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay, we'll leave that vacant at this point.
Early Intervention Team
Mr. Carmichael, The Early Intervention Team. Anyone serve on that currently?
Porter County Substance Abuse Council
Mr. Carmichael, The Porter County Substance Abuse Council. Does anyone serve on that?
Mrs. Conover, I'm serving on that, in name.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay, Karen.
Porter County Services
Mr. Carmichael, Porter County Services, is that the one you serve on, John?
Mr. Ruge, Yes.
Mr. Carmichael, Did you wish to continue to serve on that?
Mr. Ruge, Yes.
Mr. Carmichael, John Ruge. Does anyone have an objection?
Family Court Advisory Board
Mr. Carmichael, Family Court Advisory Board, did you…
Mrs. Stevenson, I will.
Mr. Carmichael, Rita.
Mrs. Stevenson, Yes.
Mr. Carmichael, Anyone else?
Tourism Board
Mr. Carmichael, And liaison to the Tourism Board, I have served on that in the past. If someone else would like to serve on that, they may. If not.
Mr. Poparad, Your turn, you can keep it.
Mr. Carmichael, Thanks, Bob.
COUNCIL LIAISON APPOINTMENTS
Assessors
Mr. Carmichael, Okay, we need a liaison to the assessors. I have served on that previously. Does anyone else wish to serve as that as liaison? Alright, I'll continue to serve on that.
Airport
Mr. Carmichael, Boards, Airport, who is currently serving on the airport?
Mr. Steele, I am.
Mr. Carmichael, Al, do you wish to continue that?
Mr. Steele, Please.
Animal Control
Mr. Carmichael, Animal Control.
Mr. Steele, That's mine.
Mr. Carmichael, Al.
Convention, Recreation & Visitors Commission
Mr. Carmichael, Convention, Recreation & Visitors Commission.
Mr. Poparad, That's you.
Mr. Carmichael, That's me.
Health Department
Mr. Carmichael, Who served on the Health Department?
Mrs. Stevenson, I did.
Mr. Carmichael, Rita. Anyone else wish that? Rita then.
Park Department
Mr. Carmichael, Park Department, I think that was Karen.
Mrs. Conover, Yes.
Mr. Carmichael, Anyone else?
Plan Commission
Mr. Carmichael, Plan Commission.
Mr. Poparad, That was me.
Mr. Carmichael, Bob.
Mr. Poparad, Yes, I'll stay.
Auditor
Mr. Carmichael, Liaison to the elected officials. The Auditor?
Mrs. Conover, I think that's me.
Mr. Carmichael, Karen?
Mrs. Conover, Yes.
Coroner
Mr. Carmichael, The Coroner. I'll serve on that. I'm not too friendly with him, but, I don't want to get any closer.
Drainage Board
Mr. Carmichael, Drainage Board.
Mrs. Knoblock, I was on that.
Mr. Carmichael, Who serves on that? Carole?
Mrs. Knoblock, Yes.
Recorder
Mr. Carmichael, Recorder.
Mrs. Stevenson, I would.
Mr. Carmichael, Rita.
Surveyor
Mr. Carmichael, And Surveyor.
Mrs. Knoblock, I was on that.
Mr. Carmichael, Carole. Anyone else?
Treasurer
Mr. Carmichael, And Treasurer. Anyone serves as liaison to the Treasurer? If not, I'll serve as the liaison, if no one else would like to.
Building Department
Mr. Carmichael, Commissioners' Departments, Building Department.
Mr. Steele, I believe that's me, Bill.
Mr. Carmichael, Al.
Mr. Steele, Yes.
Commissioners
Mr. Carmichael, Commissioners. I'll serve on that if nobody else wants to.
Mr. Poparad, I'll help you out. Do you want to share it?
Mr. Carmichael, Bill and Bob, okay, thank you.
Data Processing
Mr. Carmichael, Data Processing. Okay, I'll serve as that liaison if no one else will.
Emergency Management Agency
Mr. Carmichael, Emergency Management.
Mr. Poparad, I'm doing that.
Mr. Carmichael, Bob.
Mr. Poparad, Yes.
Mr. Carmichael, Anyone else?
Environmental
Mr. Carmichael, Environmental. No one?
Expo Center
Mr. Carmichael, Expo Center. I believe I had that last year, does someone else want the Expo Center?
Mr. Ruge, I do.
Mr. Carmichael, John. Anyone else?
Highway Department
Mr. Carmichael, Highway Department.
Mr. Poparad, I'll keep it.
Mr. Carmichael, Bob.
Memorial Opera House
Mr. Carmichael, Memorial Opera House. Anyone?
Print Shop
Mr. Carmichael, Print Shop.
Mr. Poparad, It's gone. The Print Shop's gone.
Mr. Carmichael, That's with the…
Mr. Steele, IT.
Mrs. Knoblock, Data Processing.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay, that's the, with the Data Processing, and that's me. Okay.
Veterans Service
Mr. Carmichael, Veterans Service. Anyone?
Weights & Measures
Mr. Carmichael, Weights & Measures. Anyone?
Mrs. Knoblock, I had them.
Mr. Carmichael, Pardon?
Mrs. Knoblock, I had Weights & Measures.
Mr. Carmichael, Weights & Measures.
Mrs. Knoblock, Yes.
Mr. Carmichael, Carole.
Adult Probation
Mr. Carmichael, Judicial. Adult Probation.
Mr. Steele, That's me, Bill.
Mr. Carmichael, That's Al.
Mrs. Conover, And myself.
Mr. Carmichael, Al and Karen.
Circuit Court
Mr. Carmichael, Circuit Court.
Mrs. Stevenson, Me.
Mrs. Conover, I'm the…
Mrs. Knoblock, And Carole. Karen.
Mrs. Conover, Yes.
Mr. Carmichael, Rita and Karen.
Clerk
Mr. Carmichael, Clerk.
Mr. Ruge, I am.
Mr. Carmichael, John. Anyone else?
General Courts
Mr. Carmichael, General Courts.
Mrs. Conover, Rita and Karen.
Mr. Carmichael, Rita and Karen.
Juvenile Detention
Juvenile Probation
Mr. Carmichael, Juvenile Detention.
Mrs. Conover, The same.
Mr. Carmichael, Karen.
Mrs. Stevenson, I will be too.
Mr. Carmichael, Rita. Anyone else? That would include Juvenile Probation?
Mrs. Conover, Yes.
Mr. Carmichael, The same.
Mrs. Conover, Yes.
Mr. Carmichael, Alright.
PCADOS
Mr. Carmichael, PCADOS.
Mrs. Conover, Both Rita and myself.
Mr. Carmichael, Karen.
Prosecutor
Prosecutor IV-D
Mr. Carmichael, Prosecutor. Anyone?
Mrs. Conover, Rita, had you been serving on that one?
Mrs. Stevenson, On what, the Prosecutor?
Mrs. Conover, Yes.
Mrs. Stevenson, No.
Mrs. Conover, I was serving as Prosecutor.
Mr. Carmichael, Rita and you?
Mrs. Conover, No, just myself.
Mrs. Stevenson, Just Karen.
Mr. Carmichael, Would that include the IV-D program?
Mrs. Conover, Yes.
Public Defender
Mr. Carmichael, Public Defender. Anyone?
Superior Court 1
Superior Court 2
Superior Court 3
Superior Court 4
Superior Court 6
Mr. Carmichael, There's Superior Court 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or 1, 2, 3, 4 and 6. Anyone wish to serve on that?
Mrs. Conover, I had been serving on that.
Mrs. Stevenson, I think we were…
Mrs. Conover, Yes, we both did.
Mrs. Stevenson, Karen and I both.
Mr. Carmichael, Anyone else?
Election Board
Mr. Carmichael, Election Board.
Mr. Ruge, I.
Mr. Carmichael, John.
Extension Office
Mr. Carmichael, Extension Office.
Mrs. Knoblock, I had that.
Mr. Carmichael, Carole.
Soil & Water
Mr. Carmichael, Soil & Water. No one.
Voters Registration
Mr. Carmichael, Voters Registration.
Welfare/Family & Children
Mr. Carmichael, Welfare/Family & Children.
Sheriff
Jail
Public Safety
Sheriff's Garage
Mr. Carmichael, The Sheriff's Department, there's four departments there. There's the Jail, Public Safety, the Sheriff and the Sheriff's Garage.
Mr. Poparad, Me and Al. We're both, me and Al both were on there.
Mr. Carmichael, Al, Bob. Rita, you had an interest in that, did you want to serve on that board? There's plenty of room. There's one, two, three, four areas.
Mrs. Stevenson, Yes.
Mr. Carmichael, Rita.
Mr. Steele, Bill, Bob and I are on all those areas, correct? Plus Rita?
Mr. Carmichael, Okay.
Mr. Steele, And isn't public safety now part of IT?
Mr. Carmichael, I don't know.
Mr. Poparad, Well there is…
Mr. Steele, That was the 911, wasn't it?
Mrs. Conover, Yes.
Mr. Poparad, It was taken to 911, yes.
Mr. Steele, So now they're IT, aren't they?
Mr. Poparad, No, they're still….
Mr. Carmichael, Public Safety.
Mr. Steele, Okay, excuse me.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay. Alright, that takes care of our liaisons. Okay, we'll start with the Roll Call and the Pledge of Allegiance. We've already had the Pledge, we'll do the Roll Call.
CITIZEN APPOINTMENTS
Alcoholic Beverage Commission
Mrs. Conover, Could we deviate from the budget somewhat for the Citizen Appointments, so the people can…
Mr. Carmichael, Oh sure.
Mrs. Conover, Go home.
Mr. Carmichael, Where are we on that? The next page?
Mrs. Conover, Yes. Alcoholic Beverage Commission.
Mr. Carmichael, Citizen Appointments, the Alcoholic Beverage Commission, I have received one entry on that, and that was Charlie Kingsbury. Is there anyone else?
Mr. Poparad moved to reappoint Charles Kingsbury as the Council's appointment to the Alcoholic Beverage Commission for 2004. Mr. Steele seconded, motion carried on a unanimous voice vote.
Burns Harbor EDC
Mr. Carmichael, Do we, have we heard from the Burns Harbor EDC? Not yet, no.
Mr. Poparad, No. They haven't had a meeting, they just…
Convention, Recreation & Visitors Commission
Mr. Carmichael, Did you contact David about the Tourism Bureau? Was there anyone that applied for the Tourism Bureau appointment? What did David indicate, that he would serve if no one else wanted it?
Ms. Riley, Yes, yes.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay. Okay, do you wish to reappoint David Canright to the Tourism Bureau?
Mr. Poparad, Does he want to be?
Mr. Carmichael, Apparently he said he would serve if no one else would, that's the word I heard. No one else wanted it.
Mr. Steele moved to reappoint David Canright as the Council's appointment to the Convention, Recreation & Visitors Commission for a period of two years. Mr. Ruge seconded, motion carried on a unanimous voice vote.
Park Board
Mr. Carmichael, We have a Park Board member, and I've received two applications for that. one from the current member, Mr. Erwin, and one from Tim Cole. There's Tim back here. Okay, so you have a choice there of two members. If you'd like to come forward, both of you, maybe the Council would like to ask you a question or two. I know I have a question or two for you. Thank you both for applying, I appreciate it very much. You're one of the few ones where we get a choice, you know. The question I'd like to ask, both of you can answer, one or the other, whichever, alphabetically, let's put it; Cole and Erwin. So the C comes before the I, so you're in the box, Tim.
Harold Erwin, Erwin is spelled with an E.
Mr. Carmichael, Oh, it's with an E?
Mr. Erwin, Yes.
Mr. Carmichael, Oh, A, B, C, D, E. C still gets it. Okay. I've seen your name on the mailbox, but I. Give us a little, your rendition of the barn project.
Tim Cole, As far as the barn project, we had in mind, a replacement for the shed that was put up in that, in an emergency situation after the fire burned the real barn down many years ago. Essentially, a typical looking barn, a farm style barn, to take the place, that would also serve as a functionary center for events, perhaps park board offices as well as foundation offices, and park staff offices.
We would like to minimize the office space in terms of having a rental facility or a gathering facility onsite at Sunset Hill. As you know, right now we really don't have anything out there for large groups other than shelters that are open to, that are pretty much open to the weather. That's our idea for the barn project, and we would like to move forward with that as much as possible.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay. You're aware of what the item is in the CEDIT plan?
Mr. Cole, Yes.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay. And what's your conception?
Mr. Erwin, Well the idea of a barn project is a good idea as long as we maintain what Mr. Murray wanted when he gave the land to us, and that is an open space and a dairy farm. There used to be a dairy farm in the old days. We would like to keep the west section of the barn, this is the old dairy barn, just use that as a demo to show. There's lot of kids in this county right now who have no idea where the milk comes from other than from the grocery store. They don't know what a dairy farm is. They don't know how cows are milked or anything like that.
The other old structure to the west could be torn down, and another structure built to use as a rental place, as long as it's properly heated and air conditioned, and that's what you would use all year round. Otherwise it's just going to be another building out there, setting out there like the one we have now. I think most board members feel that there's a good way to do that, but I think it is something that we do not need to rush into. We need to make sure we have a proper plan, proper diagrams on the way that we want to get this building up, so that it's going to serve the county in the best way. I'm also a farmer myself.
Mr. Carmichael, I don't know if you're aware or not, but Ruth Jarnecke wrote a letter to us. I received a copy; I believe she wrote it to the commissioners, but I received a copy of it.
Mr. Cole, I'm aware of the commissioners' letter, yes.
Mr. Carmichael, Oh, okay. Concerning the tractor and some sort of recognition for Jack's service to the historical power association. Are you aware of that?
Mr. Cole, I'm aware that she would like to have, memorialize Jack's name for the years of service he gave the County, but I've always looked at that as a county matter between herself and the County. I never looked at that as a Foundation project or…
Mr. Carmichael, Oh, you're on the Foundation?
Mr. Cole, Yes.
Mr. Carmichael, And how do you feel about that?
Mr. Erwin, It was my understanding that charge was given to the Historical Foundation, not to the Park Department, but the Foundation. So it would be up to the historical foundation to decide what they want to do with that tractor. And if nothing, present it to the Park Board, to my knowledge, then it's going to be presented to us at the, that tractor was given to the, in memory, and the Historical Power Association.
Mr. Carmichael, I wasn't aware of that.
Mr. Erwin, That's, that's why…
Mr. Carmichael, I thought it was given to the Park Board by the letter.
Mr. Cole, I have not read the letter. I haven't received my copy yet, the Chesterton mail-- Rural Liberty Township--is generally a day or so later than everybody else's, and especially with my mail lady. But in phone conversation with her, I understood her to say that it was for Sunset Hill. Now whether she meant NIHPA or the Park Department, I'm not sure, but I assumed that she meant the Park Department.
Mr. Carmichael, Are you agreeable to take, make proper arrangements for that donation?
Mr. Cole, If it comes under our heading, but I really felt that it was a county matter.
Mr. Erwin, If it's donated to the Park Department, sure.
Mr. Carmichael, Rich, did you have something to input on it?
Rich Hudson, Yes, Bill. Rich Hudson, I'm the president of the Park Board, at least until Thursday. This will be brought up at our meeting Thursday night.
Mr. Carmichael, Oh.
Mr. Hudson, We did receive letters. They were transmitted to all the Park Board members. There was, you got one, I'm sure there's a whole series of people that received those, so we will be looking at this letter, and hopefully acting on it, or at least giving it some direction at our meeting Thursday.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay. Anyone else have a question for either one of these members? If not, you can go back to your respective seats, and see what happens here. You have two for consideration. Is there a nomination for Mr. Cole?
Mrs. Knoblock, I don't think we, this doesn't seem proper to me to do it this way.
Mr. Carmichael, Well how do you want to do it?
Mrs. Knoblock, Well I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings, and we just now heard them tonight. I don't know. I don't think it's right to vote open. Let's have a secret ballot then, because I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings. I don't even know who to vote for really.
Mr. Carmichael, Oh, okay. Well that's why I had the two gentlemen up here…
Mrs. Knoblock, I know.
Mr. Carmichael, So you could get the chance to meet both of them. Do you want to do it by secret ballot?
Mrs. Knoblock, Well, I don't want anybody's feelings hurt.
Mr. Carmichael, I don't think there's any arrangement for that. Dave, is that?
Mr. Hollenbeck, Well, you know, as much as I can empathize with Carole's desire not to hurt someone's feelings, we can't secret ballot something at a public meeting.
Mr. Carmichael, Right. Well I don't think either gentleman, not being on a board would not diminish their enthusiasm for the parks system. They've both shown enthusiasm over the course of a number of years.
Mrs. Conover, And we've been well served to have both those individuals volunteering countless hours of their time, whether it be for the Foundation or the Park Board or a combination of both.
Mr. Carmichael, So do you have a nominee?
Mrs. Conover, I have a nominee, and it's, you know, one of these situations like Carole said, hurt somebody's feelings, but we have two dedicated individuals. And Mr. Erwin is, were you appointed to fulfill someone's term?
Mr. Erwin, I was appointed two years to fill a vacant term, but I had served on the board prior to that.
Mrs. Conover, Both Mr. Cole and Mr. Erwin have given exemplary service to, to our Sunset Hill Park, and Mr. Erwin is asking for reappointment to the board.
Mrs. Conover moved to nominate Harold Erwin as the Council's appointment to the Porter County Park Board for a period of four years. Mrs. Stevenson and Mr. Poparad seconded.
Mr. Carmichael, Are there any further nominations? Hearing none, I'll move the nominations be closed, and Mr. Erwin be elected by unanimous consent. Does the Board agree with that?
Mr. Steele, Yes.
Mrs. Conover, Yes.
Mr. Ruge, So moved.
Mr. Carmichael, No disagreement? Okay. Then Mr. Erwin will continue to serve on the Park Board. I thank both of them for applying. I'm sure they'll both continue to serve in the proper manner, and with great enthusiasm. I know Mr. Cole and Mr. Erwin both have done that in the past, and will continue to do so in the future. Thank you for both applying.
PTABOA
Mr. Carmichael, PTABOA. Shirley. Is Shirley here? Do we have those before us here somewhere?
Shirley LaFever, You have the letter, they're not here.
Mr. Carmichael, Would you name the ones that you have selected.
Mrs. LaFever, Jim Looft and James Kopp.
Mr. Carmichael, Looft.
Mrs. LaFever, And James Kopp.
Mr. Carmichael, And James Kopp. And they're both Level II's?
Mrs. LaFever, They're both Level II certified assessors.
Mr. Carmichael, And they're eligible to serve?
Mrs. LaFever, Yes.
Mr. Carmichael, What's the Council's pleasure?
Mrs. Conover moved to appoint James Kopp and James Looft to serve on the PTABOA Board for a period of one year. Mrs. Knoblock and Mr. Steele seconded, motion carried on a unanimous voice vote.
Mr. Carmichael, Are there any others? Now does that take care of all of the appointments?
ATTORNEY CONTRACT
Mr. Carmichael, We have a contract before us with Dave, and as I was looking over this situation, Dave has been very good to us, excellent, excellent service to this county council. When we, the Council, took our 10% pay cut, perhaps that was before a couple of members were on the board, I'm not sure, but Dave also volunteered to take a pay cut. I think he should be able to, that should be restored. I think it was in the amount of, what was it, Sheila, 800-some dollars?
Ms. Riley, I have no idea what that was?
Mr. Carmichael, Do you have that around, David?
Mr. Hollenbeck, According to this memo, we went from $8,725 to $7,853, which would be an $872 cut.
Mr. Carmichael, $872.
Mr. Hollenbeck, An $872 cut, and that occurred in, for calendar year '02 and '03. We cut, it was at $8,725 in '01. We cut it to $7,853 in '02 and '03.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay. Each one of you have received a copy, I'm sorry, John.
Mr. Ruge moved to restore Attorney Hollenbeck's contractual fee to $8,725 for 2004. Mr. Poparad seconded.
Mr. Carmichael, We have a motion and a second. Further discussion? Those in favor of that vote…
Mr. Steele, I'd like to say this.
Mr. Carmichael, Al, discussion.
Mr. Steele, I agree to Dave getting his money back too, but this can't be a precedent for bringing everybody else into line or up to where they were before. If that's the situation we're doing this, because it's an independent contractor, he's an attorney, he's, even though he did that from the generosity of his heart, we want people to know that restoring his rightful attorney's wages is not the same as bringing everybody else up to where they were before we made the cut. I think there should be a definite line on that.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay. Well I think the only two bodies that made the cut were us and Dave. That's the only…
Mr. Steele, And I'm talking about us.
Mr. Carmichael, Yes.
Mr. Steele, Okay.
Mr. Carmichael, I didn't include us in that.
Mr. Steele, No, I know. I just wanted to be sure that that wasn't setting a precedent.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay, those in favor of the motion, answer by the usual sign of aye.
Motion carried on a unanimous voice vote.
Mr. Carmichael, Motion carries, now we consider the full contract.
Mr. Poparad moved to approve Attorney's Hollenbeck's 2004 contract as amended. Mrs. Conover seconded, motion carried on a unanimous voice vote.
Mr. Hollenbeck, Thank you, and I appreciate the opportunity of working with each of you.
Mr. Carmichael, Well I know you work very hard, Dave.
Mr. Hollenbeck, I'm going to pass down copies of the contract.
Mr. Carmichael, I know the one thing about Dave in the years I have known him, he keeps you informed on everything he can possibly keep you informed on. He has that mentality that you cover your bosses with paperwork, and Dave does a good job of that. I appreciate it, Dave.
Mrs. Conover, There's been a lot of things he's had to inform us on.
Mr. Hollenbeck, It's the only way you can make good decisions if you have all the information in front of you.
Mr. Carmichael, Yes.
Mr. Hollenbeck, Bill, do you want the auditor to do a first reading while you're signing these?
Mr. Carmichael, Yes, would you please.
FIRST READING
Mrs. Vuko read the Notice to Taxpayers.
APPROVAL OF MINUTES
Mr. Hollenbeck, Bill, you've also go the minutes of your December 2, 2003 meeting, I think that Jan was able to get them out before she got sick.
Mr. Carmichael, We don't have those in front of us at this time.
Mr. Hollenbeck, I said I think Jan did them. I think she got these out before she was…
Mr. Carmichael, Did everyone get a copy of the minutes of the last, the previous meeting?
Mr. Poparad, Yes.
Mr. Carmichael, Have you had an opportunity to read them?
Mr. Poparad moved to approve the minutes of December 2, 2004 as received. Mrs. Conover seconded, motion carried on a unanimous voice vote.
EXPO CENTER 146.66
Transfer
$6,500 from 4430 Other Mobile Equipment to 4540 Other Equipment
144 Form
Part-time Administrative Assistant from $9 to $10.50 per hour
Mr. Carmichael, Expo Center. Is there anyone here present that represents the Expo Center?
Lonnie Steele, Yes, sir.
Mr. Carmichael, Are you any relation to this fellow over here on my left?
Mr. L. Steele, I don't think he'd want to admit to that. Not that we know of, but we wouldn't mind being related to one another if we were forced to do so.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay.
Mr. L. Steele, I'm here to request a transfer, due to the fact that we had an area of the budget that was inadvertently entered. We entered the amount of $6,500 in the line item 4430, which is Other Mobile Equipment, when in fact it should have been entered on line item 4540 Other Equipment. And I would like to have your approval to transfer it into the proper line item.
Mr. Carmichael, What's the Council's pleasure?
Mrs. Conover moved to grant the request for transfer of funds submitted by the Expo Center, $6,500 from 4430 Other Mobile Equipment to 4540 Other Equipment. Mr. Ruge seconded, motion carried on a unanimous voice vote.
Mr. Carmichael, You have a 144 Form.
Mr. L. Steele, I do. It has to do with a part-time administrative assistant. I would propose that her responsibilities are such that it would warrant us increasing the hourly rate from $9 an hour to a level of $10.50 an hour. I expect her to perform as a, as a part of a management team at the Porter County Expo Center. Looking to the future I would like to see her trained to move into a position that might be vacated down the road somewhere.
Mr. Carmichael, Do you have income sufficient to support this amount?
Mr. L. Steele, We do have, and will have.
Mr. Carmichael, Is that from fees and services provided? That's what you live on, right?
Mr. L. Steele, Yes.
Mr. Poparad, Did some…
Mr. Ruge, This isn't an '01? This isn't an '01 request?
Mrs. Stevenson, No.
Mr. Ruge, It's a 144?
Mr. Carmichael, Yes, a part-time request, John.
Mr. Ruge moved to amend the 144 Form submitted by the Expo Center, Part-time Administrative Assistant from $9 to $10.50 per hour.
Mr. Ruge, We have a rule on the general fund, but this is different.
Mr. Carmichael, That's correct. This is sufficiently their own money. Bob, did you have a motion?
Mr. Poparad, No, I have a question. Did her responsibilities change from when you hired her until now?
Mr. L. Steele, Yes.
Mr. Carmichael, Is there a second?
Mr. L. Steele, I, now when I say they have, I would like for them to. I can't officially give her that position without your approval.
Mr. Al Steele, I think Bill wants a second here before we go ahead.
Mr. Carmichael, Do we have a second down here?
Mrs. Conover seconded.
Mr. Carmichael, Second. Bob.
Mr. Poparad, Oh, I thought, I didn't know we got that far.
Mr. Carmichael, No, there wasn't a second.
Mr. Poparad, I mean, what changed here that, did you hire an administrative assistant or do you have somebody that you're going to make an administrative assistant?
Mr. L. Steele, We hired an assistant manager.
Mr. Poparad, Right.
Mr. L. Steele, This is an administrative assistant position that it will be a three-person operation, with her as a part-time hourly individual, with the authority to make decisions similar to those of the assistant manager and myself.
Mr. Poparad, How many hours a week?
Mr. L. Steele, That will vary a great deal based on the schedule and what needs to be done. She will be part-time every week that she works, so.
Mr. Poparad, Well that could be 30 hours a week too?
Mr. L. Steele, That's correct, but it won't be. I mean, it's a situation where the work that we have out there demands us to have people available to interact with people and make decisions in regard to the rental of the place, and that's what her responsibility is; I'd like for her to have the authority to do that along with the assistant manager and myself.
Mr. Al Steele, How long has she been on board, Lonnie?
Mr. L. Steele, Oh, at least the amount of time that I've been there, and I'm starting my sixth year.
Mr. Al Steele, This is not the lady that came one time that was just newly hired? There was someone who spoke for you at one of the previous meetings.
Mr. L. Steele, Yes, but she wasn't newly hired at that point. I think there was an assumption that she was going to be hired as the assistant manager from the sounds of the meeting that took place that night, but that was not what was recommended. She has been on as the bar manager, and also as a secretarial position. This will be, again, will be funded by the income that comes in from rentals on the facility out there.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay. Roll call.
Motion carried on the following roll call vote:
Poparad - No Ruge - Yes
Steele - No Stevenson - Yes
Carmichael - Yes Conover - Yes
Knoblock - No
Mr. Carmichael, It's approved by a four to three vote. Is there anything else that you have?
Mr. L. Steele, Is there a, I'm not sure whether there's a need for you to respond to a recommendation for an individual that's been on a probationary status. The assistant manager position, is it the responsibility of the Council to act on that, if not, I'm getting an indication that it's not.
Mr. Carmichael, That's the commissioners.
Mr. L. Steele, Okay, It's a, then I am finished with my agenda for tonight--my part of the agenda. Thank you.
Mr. Carmichael, Thank you very much. We appreciate it.
ITS 01.50
Additional Appropriation
$80,000 to 10 Enhanced Access
Mr. Carmichael, The Information Technologies & Service representative. Do we have one here? You've got John all squared away up in Portage now?
Sharon Lippens, No, not yet.
Mr. Carmichael, Not yet, huh. Okay.
Mrs. Lippens, Still working on it.
Mr. Carmichael, Still working on it. Alright, you need an additional to the E-911 fund?
Mrs. Lippens, No, not 911, Enhanced Access. It's a fee that the state allows us to charge for enhanced access to public records that are computerized. In order to collect the fee, we have to have a contract with the outside party that's going to be a, that's going to be accessing the records, which we have. The fee just went down this year. We need to purchase some new equipment to provide that access, and that's what the fund is dedicated to. The fund is dedicated to enhancing or maintaining the equipment service that is being used to provide the service to the person that's paying for it.
Mr. Carmichael, Is this a contract by the commissioners?
Mrs. Lippens, It's a contract, the contract is between the party that wants the access and the commissioners, and the contract is that they pay us a monthly fee for that access.
Mr. Poparad, Who is this?
Mrs. Lippens, Pardon?
Mr. Poparad, Who is this?
Mrs. Lippens, Who is this?
Mr. Poparad, Yes.
Mrs. Lippens, There are quite a few of them. We had most of the title companies in town, Ticor, Meridian, Property Insight or Security Union, First American, Chicago Title. We also have a couple of attorney firms. We have a bail bonds firm, and they all access the information for either taxing information or for court records.
Mr. Poparad, Electronically? They just come in, and do it electronically.
Mrs. Lippens, They come in through the Internet. We have a web page, a specific web page that they can only get into by a password. They come in, they pay a monthly fee, they have unlimited access. Most of the people that we have, have been subscribers since I started 17 years ago, so. This is the first year that the fee has gone down, and the reason the fee went down this year was because we changed over the platform in technology we were using to provide the access. The fee is supposed to be related to the cost of maintaining the system to provide it. So therefore the fee went down.
Mr. Steele, How much?
Mr. Poparad, What are you going to do with the money?
Mrs. Lippens, The money is going to be used to purchase new equipment to upgrade what we've been using.
Mrs. Knoblock, Is it limited or can anybody subscribe to it?
Mrs. Lippens, Anybody can subscribe to it if they pay for it. And obviously they can only access public information. Anything that's confidential cannot be disclosed.
Mrs. Knoblock, What's the fee on that?
Mrs. Lippens, The fee is $50 a month.
Mr. Poparad, You've not spent this money in a while, it appears.
Mrs. Lippens, No, I have not. We left it on the same technology base that it has been for a while, and we reviewed it last year, and we're going to be moving it to a different base, and it will be much less expensive.
Mr. Carmichael, There is a contract between the commissioners and these providers.
Mrs. Lippens, There's several. There's a separate contract with each person, and that contract specifies what we will provide them in service, and that its termination can be done by either party at any time. So if they decide that they're not getting their $50 a month worth, they can cancel at any time.
Mr. Carmichael, Are you saying that the fees you charge would be sufficient to cover this cost?
Mrs. Lippens, There's already enough money in there to cover that cost.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay, it's in a separate fund.
Mrs. Lippens, Yes.
Mr. Carmichael, Oh, and the money is there.
Mrs. Lippens, That money is already there. I'm just asking for it be put in the…
Ms. Riley, There's $78,000 in that fund right now.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay.
Mrs. Lippens, Right.
Mr. Carmichael, And they pay monthly.
Mrs. Lippens, They pay monthly, so that's why I'm doing the 80, because by the time we take the current subscribers at $50 a month through the end of the year it will be over 80. I just rounded it to 80.
Mr. Poparad, You have no, you're going to buy something with this $80,000?
Mrs. Lippens, Not all of it.
Mr. Poparad, So you don't know what you're going to buy, but we're appropriating it?
Mrs. Lippens, Right.
Mr. Poparad, Do you want to come back and tell us what you're going to buy or are we just going to give you…
Mrs. Lippens, I can if you want me to.
Mr. Poparad, Well, once we give you the $80,000, you're going to go buy something.
Mrs. Lippens, I'm not going to spend all of it. I probably will spend a very small fraction of it.
Mr. Carmichael, You just want it appropriated in other words, is what you are saying.
Mrs. Lippens, It can't be utilized…
Mr. Carmichael, Anywhere else?
Mrs. Lippens, For expenditure if it's not appropriated.
Mr. Poparad, Correct.
Mr. Carmichael, What is the Council's…
Mr. Poparad, We don't have an expenditure yet to appropriate it to.
Mrs. Lippens, Right.
Mr. Poparad moved to deny the request for additional appropriations submitted by ITS, $80,000 to 10 Enhanced Access.
Mr. Poparad, When she goes to spend it, then she comes back and tells us how much she needs.
Mr. Steele, Do you have any idea what you are going to use it for?
Mrs. Lippens, We're going to purchase new equipment, and new software, and possibly some services to upgrade what we are providing now.
Mr. Poparad, Yes, I mean, I don't have a problem with your purchases, but we don't know what they are.
Mrs. Lippens, I understand. It's not always done at one time. Normally I have a budget for this that we set up every year. This last year with all the cuts and stuff, the budget never got turned in.
Mr. Poparad, Correct.
Mrs. Lippens, Usually there's a budget that each year is set out.
Mr. Carmichael, Is this money in the general fund? No, it's in a separate fund by itself.
Ms. Riley, It's its own separate fund.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay, then we keep track of it each month. Can you give us a report on that?
Ms. Riley, I give you your funds report.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay.
Ms. Riley, That report that you get every month.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay, and it's listed on…
Ms. Riley, On that report. It's called enhanced access.
Mr. Carmichael, Is that sufficient?
Mr. Poparad, No, I mean, I don't have a problem with her spending the money, it's what it's for. It's just we're giving her $80,000 for a $40,000 purchase or $50,000 or whatever.
Mr. Carmichael, Well, when you spend it, why don't you give us a memo to the effect.
Mrs. Lippens, I can certainly do that.
Mr. Poparad, Or she can come back, and ask for the appropriation when she has the purchase.
Mr. Carmichael, Bob, there isn't anything else we can spend it on, Bob
Mr. Poparad, Okay.
Mrs. Lippens, It's a dedicated fund that cannot be used for labor. It cannot be used for anything in my office, supply-wise.
Mr. Poparad, I didn't say you're going to misspend it. I'd just like to know what you're going to spend it on before we give you the money. That's all.
Mr. Carmichael, Can you do that by memo?
Mrs. Lippens, Sure.
Mr. Poparad, There's a motion to deny the claim, I don't know if we got a second.
Mrs. Knoblock seconded.
Mrs. Knoblock, I agree. I mean, that's no problem her coming back, I'm sure.
Mr. Ruge, And I make the motion…
Mr. Carmichael, Well let's take one motion at a time, John. I've got a motion on the floor to deny the appropriation.
Mrs. Knoblock, We usually like to have a bill before we even pay it. That's, you know.
Mr. Carmichael, We'll take a roll call.
Mrs. Lippens, I, if I have a bill by the time I get back to the Council to have it appropriated, they'll repossess the equipment. That's why it has to be appropriated first, just like a budget. I mean, I'm not arguing with you, I understand.
Mr. Poparad, Well then give us an estimate.
Mrs. Lippens, But that's what I'm saying, is I can't order the equipment, by the time I get the bill, and it gets appropriated there's too much time frame, they won't want to do it. But I understand where you are coming from.
Mr. Carmichael, Well my suggestion was that you give us a memo on what you are doing, that way we can keep track of it. Roll call on the motion to deny.
Motion failed on the following roll call vote:
Ruge - No Steele - No
Stevenson - No Carmichael - No
Conover - No Knoblock - Yes
Poparad - Yes
Mrs. Vuko, Okay, it passed.
Mr. Carmichael, What is it, four to three?
Mr. Poparad, No.
Mr. Hollenbeck, The motion failed.
Mr. Carmichael, The motion dies.
Mr. Hollenbeck, There were two affirmative votes; the motion fails.
Mrs. Vuko, Wait, two of them voted no.
Mr. Hollenbeck, Right.
Mrs. Vuko, Okay, that's right.
Mr. Carmichael, Alright now, I'll need, for further consideration, do you wish to approve this additional amount. Do I have a motion to that effect?
Mr. Steele moved to grant the request for additional appropriations submitted by ITS, $80,000 to 10 Enhanced Access. Mrs. Conover seconded.
Mr. Carmichael, Al made the motion to approve, seconded, by Karen. The reason why I'm saying the names is the fact that Jan is not here tonight, and she'll have to decipher these tapes.
Mrs. Knoblock, What are we doing now?
Mrs. Conover, Motion to approve.
Mr. Carmichael, Some of our voices sound alike. Is there any further discussion? If none, I will ask for a roll call vote on the motion to allow the $80,000 to be accessed to the enhanced access fee.
Motion carried on the following roll call vote:
Steele - Yes Stevenson - Yes
Carmichael - Yes Conover - Yes
Knoblock - No Poparad - No
Ruge-Yes
Mrs. Vuko, Okay, five to two.
Mr. Poparad, Can I ask a question now?
Mr. Carmichael, Five, two . Bob.
Mr. Poparad, I've got a question. Dave.
Mr. Hollenbeck, Yes.
Mr. Poparad, Can we make an additional appropriation on anticipated revenues?
Mr. Hollenbeck, Bob, we do that every year at the budget.
Mr. Poparad, Okay.
Mr. Hollenbeck, I mean, we establish the budget, so.
Mr. Poparad, You answered my question, thank you.
Mr. Carmichael, The motion is passed, and if you would, send us, when you do purchase something, send us a memo to that effect, and we'll see that it gets, give it to Jan, and we'll see that it gets into each and every box. Okay?
Mrs. Lippens, Thank you.
Mr. Carmichael, Thank you. Home Detention.
Mrs. Knoblock, Geez.
Mr. Carmichael, Wait a minute, we have Convention, Recreation & Visitors Commission.
CONVENTION, RECREATION & VISITORS COMMISSION 93
Additional Appropriation
$937 to 1241 Longevity
$100,000 to 4210 Buildings
Mr. Carmichael, Okay, you need the additional to Longevity, and you understand that comes out of the drug fund that we have.
Lorelei Weimer, This would actually be a re-appropriation out of our budget, it would be out…
Mr. Carmichael, You want to appropriate it out of your own budget?
Ms. Weimer, Yes, out of the innkeepers' tax.
Mr. Poparad moved to grant the request for additional appropriations submitted by the Convention, Recreation & Visitors Commission, $937.50 to 1241 Longevity. Mr. Steele seconded.
Mr. Poparad, Are we doing these together, Bill or are we doing them both individual?
Mr. Carmichael, Do you want to take the whole thing at once?
Mr. Poparad moved to include the $100,000 to 4210 Buildings.
Mr. Poparad, That's for the new building.
Ms. Weimer, That was the same money you guys appropriated in 2003. It was not in our 2004 budget, so we're re-appropriating it again to get it back into the line item.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay, Let's take the first one.
Ms. Weimer, Okay.
Mr. Carmichael, Let's take the first one, Bob, and well get it out of the way.
Mr. Poparad, Okay.
Mr. Carmichael, The additional, roll call.
Motion carried on a unanimous roll call vote.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay, seven to nothing.
Mrs. Vuko, Yes.
Mr. Carmichael, Now we explained that $100,000, you have to re-appropriate.
Ms. Weimer, Right, we came before the Council in 2003 to appropriate it in our 2003 budget, but it is not in our budget for 2004, so we have to re-appropriate it again.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay. Have you received money recently?
Ms. Weimer, Yes, and I was going to announce the good news. We received our fourth TE application request of, we requested $810,000 and we got $500,000, which we're excited about, because that gets the full building completed. We do have another request for $310,000, and what you're going to be pleased with is, I talked to the National Lakeshore and we have a meeting next week to actually start working on our agreement between the two of us. I told them that you would love to hear that news. So we're pleased, the additional funding that we're requesting in the fifth application is for the permanent dunes display that will be in the dunes exhibit room.
Mr. Carmichael, And this is your own money or grant money, whatever the case may be?
Ms. Weimer, Yes, this is from the sale of our current building.
Mr. Carmichael, Oh, okay. Any further questions? What's the Council's pleasure?
Mr. Poparad moved to grant the request for additional appropriations submitted by the Convention, Recreation & Visitors Commission, $100,000 to 4210 Buildings. Mrs. Conover seconded, motion carried on a unanimous roll call vote.
Ms. Weimer, Thank you very much.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay, thank you.
HOME DETENTION 237
144 Form
PO York from $0 to $4,103
PO Staresina from $0 to $4,270
PO Taylor from $0 to $3,987
Additional Appropriation
$12,361 to 1110 Salaries
$946 to 1210 FICA
$649 to 1230 PERF
Mr. Carmichael, Home Detention. Hi, Neil.
Neil Hannon, Good evening.
Mr. Carmichael, Did you bring your body guard along with you tonight.
Mr. Hannon, Yes, I had to have someone who could answer the questions correctly.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay.
Mr. Hannon, I don't have all the answers.
Mr. Carmichael, What's happened here, you need some 144 Forms changed.
Mr. Hannon, What we're trying to do is, is we explained at our, back when we had our budget meeting for, in August, and then again at our December 2nd meeting that we would come back and have these additionals coming out of a new, a fund that we have, generated by the client fees, that this will then bring these probation officers who have been in this grant since it's started in 1990 up to being probation. They've always been certified probation officers with the special duties of being home detention. This just brings them into the pay scale that's required, that all the other probation officers have.
Mr. Carmichael, That's a law in the state of Indiana.
Mr. Hannon, Where all probation officers be paid, yes, the same. So that's what we explained it before. I can go through all that if you want to; if you want me to, I'll be glad to.
Mr. Carmichael, This income comes from fees, you're saying.
Mr. Hannon, Fees are paid for from the account. In 1990, Porter County received the first monies from the state to keep people local rather than sending them to the Department of Corrections. We received over a million dollars in that time, and they are glad that this program is in place. This is the electronic monitoring portion of it, so these people would be in prison otherwise. So that's the group that we're talking about. So when it was set up, the judges set it up that the home detention officers would also be probation officers, and that's what we've continued to do, and that's what the grant requires us to do, and that's why we're here going through this step tonight.
Mr. Carmichael, They all have the necessary educational requirements?
Mr. Hannon, Yes, they do, and they have the additional training. So we're asking that the different positions that they have, Jennifer York, have an additional $4,104, Rick Staresina, $4,270, and Jim Taylor, $3,987, taken from this fund and added to the current monies that are being paid. We actually have, like Jim Taylor is being paid from three separate funds. These others now are paid from two separate funds. So that's why we're here is just to try to bring them up to the required pay schedule, the minimum pay schedule, for their years of experience.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay. Does anyone have a question on the request?
Mr. Poparad, Yes.
Mr. Carmichael, Bob.
Mr. Poparad, On this grant money, does that pay half the benefits?
Mr. Hannon, Does that pay half the benefits?
Steven Meyer, It pays all the benefits.
Mr. Hannon, I thought that it paid all of them. I didn't want to…
Mr. Poparad, You mean health care?
Mr. Meyer, Yes.
Mr. Hannon, Yes, and it always has. But I wanted to be sure of that.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay. Sheila's nodding her head yes down there.
Mr. Hannon, Jim Taylor, there's an exception to everything. Jim Taylor is paid half by the County, half by the state for his position. The other two are paid fully, so that Bob has the full information. Yes, so of the positions are paid full by the state, one is paid half by the County and half by the state. Now we're going to have a third fund being paid for by the state, so more than half will be paid for by the state on Jim Taylor's salary.
Mr. Carmichael, Basically nothing changed here, because you're still paying, he's still getting his full health insurance benefits.
Mr. Meyer, Correct.
Mr. Carmichael, So nothing changes.
Mr. Meyer, Correct.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay. I mean, as far as a deficit on the county.
Mr. Hannon, So we'd like your approval for those amounts retroactive to December 29, 2003 or the beginning of the fiscal year this year.
Mr. Carmichael, Is there a motion to approve this request?
Mrs. Conover moved to amend the 144 Form submitted by Home Detention 237 Fund, PO York from $0 to $4,103, PO Staresina from $0 to $4,270, and PO Taylor from $0 to $3,987, retroactive to December 29, 2003. Mr. Ruge seconded, motion carried on a unanimous roll call vote.
Mr. Carmichael, Now you'll need the additional now to support those amounts of money that was requested here, right? Is that what you need?
Mr. Hannon, Yes.
Mr. Carmichael, $12,361 to Salaries, $946 to FICA, and $649 to PERF. What's the Council's pleasure?
Mr. Poparad moved to grant the request for additional appropriations submitted by Home Detention 237, $12,361 to 1110 Salaries, $946 to 1210 FICA, and $649 to 1230 PERF. Mr. Steele seconded, motion carried on a unanimous roll call vote.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay.
Mr. Hannon, Thank you.
PCADOS 134
144 Form
Craig Ingram from $40,423 to $42,596
Mr. Carmichael, Are you handling PCADOS too?
Mr. Hannon, Yes.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay. You're pushing your luck, aren't you.
Mr. Hannon, Yes.
Mr. Carmichael, Alright, Neil.
Mr. Hannon, What we're doing is we're asking for an increase again. The PCADOS account is a self, self-sufficient account in the sense that the client's fees pay for all the services of PCADOS. We have one of the employees who received a masters degree during the year, so we're asking that the 5% increase in his salary be paid for out of that account as required again by the minimum salary statute for standards and statute for the probation officers in Indiana. He earned it in August, and so we've waited until now to come before you, so he actually, we just are asking that it too become retroactive to the 29th of December 2003, as opposed to going back to August of last year.
Mr. Carmichael, Does the employee agree with that?
Mr. Hannon, Yes, he's going to agree to that, yes.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay, I understand. Is there sufficient funds, Sheila, in that account?
Ms. Riley, He will need to come back in front of you and do an additional. He already knows that. We just want to get the salary established so we can actually start paying him. There are sufficient funds in the account to pay.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay.
Mr. Steele, Neil, is that mandated by the state, this increase in pay, like for the other officers too or not?
Mr. Hannon, Yes, and only, like in the, with a masters degree, you have to have five years of paid experience, and that's, he's met that requirement. Actually, he's in his 15th year and just earned that. So if they, a probation officer with a masters degree doesn't get 5% more until they've been employed in the position a full five years. So year six that begins, and that's required by the state.
Mr. Steele, And the state mandates it. They're the ones that give us the direction.
Mr. Hannon, Correct, yes.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay.
Mr. Ruge moved to amend the 144 Form submitted by PCADOS, Craig Ingram from $40,423 to $42,596. Mrs. Knoblock seconded, motion carried on a unanimous roll call vote.
Antabuse 27
144 Form
Registered Nurse from $15 to $15.50 per hour
Security Officer from $11.40 to $11.90 per hour
Mr. Carmichael, One more?
Mr. Hannon, Yes.
Mr. Carmichael, Neil, you're really pushing it. Your Registered Nurse…
Mr. Hannon, Yes, our department oversees the Antabuse program. There's approximately 180 people a day that are involved in that program. We actually have at times, there's, Monday, Wednesday and Friday, two times a day, people can come either to the Valpo site or the Portage Willowcreek center there, and take their Antabuse between 6:00 and 8:00 in the morning or 5:00 and 7:00 in the evenings.
So the nurses that work for the Health Department are not the same nurses that dispense the Antabuse, and we have security separate from the security the county has here that does the security at that site at the request of the nurses. So what we do is we charge everybody that's on Antabuse $70 a month; buy the Antabuse from Porter Memorial Hospital at the pharmacy for the, you know, reduced rate, the cheapest that we can. And then, all of that is done through the Health Department, where they hire the nurses, and it's dispensed by them.
We have, I mean, there's times, as long as we have 90 people in the program, we can break even. In other words, it covers our operating cost. So again, the clients pay for this. What had happened in, this summer, or in August when I was here for budgets, we were going through all these series of different changes in the employees' salaries and hourly and so forth, I omitted or failed to ask for these nurses to get the 50 cents per hour raise that you gave to all the other county, part-time employees. So that's, I'm back here for that purpose at their request to make it equitable again so that they've got the same raise as to the other part-time hourly.
Mr. Carmichael, You're including the security officer at the same time?
Mr. Hannon, Yes, I am.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay. Alright, does everybody understand that? What's the Council's pleasure?
Mr. Poparad moved to amend the 144 Form submitted by Antabuse, Registered Nurse from $15 to $15.50 per hour and Security Officer from $11.40 to $11.90 per hour (retroactive to December 29, 2003). Mrs. Conover seconded, motion carried on a unanimous roll call vote.
Mr. Carmichael, Go ahead.
Mr. Hannon, I failed to ask you to make that retroactive so that…
Mr. Carmichael, Does the motion and the second agree that it's retroactive to December 29th? Both nodded yes, so that's retroactive to December 29th.
Mr. Hannon, Okay. Thank you very much. I appreciate your efforts.
Mr. Carmichael Well you go home tonight and relax. You got everything you came for, and you took over five minutes.
PLAN COMMISSION & BUILDING DEPARTMENT
144 Form and Budget
Executive Director/County Planner at $45,000
Building Commissioner at $30,817
Assistant Planner/Zoning Inspector at $30,537
Administrative Assistant at $28,730
First Deputy at $26,295
Second Deputy at $23,411
Building Inspector from $0 to $22,813
Code Enforcement Officer from $0 to $25,000
Part-time Building Inspectors (2) at $9.98/hr
Part-time Secretary at $8.98/hr
Boards at $50/meeting
Budget
Salaries at $232,603
Hourly at $36,412
FICA at $49,448
Medical/Life Insurance at $56,500
PERF at $11,205
Boards at $10,700
Office Supplies at $4,000
Office Fixtures under $100 at $300
Other Supplies at $900
Law Books at $1,700
Legal at $10,000
Training & Education at $2,000
Travel at $7,000
Legal Notices at $1,100
Photo & Blueprint at $750
Maintenance Agreements at $2,800
Dues & Subscriptions at $1,350
Contractual Attorney at $7,750
Mr. Carmichael, Alright, Plan Commission & Building Department. This is the Bob and Ray Show. There used to be a show by that name, Bob and Ray.
Ray Weltz, Yes, a sideshow.
Mr. Carmichael, Are you old enough to remember that.
Robert Thompson, To explain this, the reason why we are here, we sat down with Sheila, I believe it was at the end of November, and the non-reverting fund was created and started in, July 1st of this year. So the budget that was originally approved in the fall of this year was based on the general fund. The reason why we are here is for a budget to be approved, to be used for the non-reverting fund that we have now for the planning and building departments, called the Building, Planning & Zoning Fund. That has, that was created. The money from July 1st that we've been collecting for fees has been going into that fund at this time.
So this is, we're here for the budget based on that fund or for that fund, I should say. One thing I would to point out immediately on the 144, and I did not realize this too, until a couple of weeks ago, because no verification was ever given to us, I did not realize that the $1,000 raises were approved. So if you're looking at the 144 Form, no, it does not reflect the $1,000 raise that were given out.
Mr. Carmichael, It was not reflected in there?
Mr. Thompson, No.
Mr. Carmichael, So it would be 46.
Mr. Thompson, It would be 46 for mine, 31,800.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay, we'll change that request to 46.
Mr. Thompson, And that would be for all of them.
Mr. Carmichael, Does the Building Commissioner, now is that included in the Building Commissioner's?
Mr. Weltz, That would go to 31, 31,817.
Mr. Thompson, All of the salaries.
Mr. Weltz, All of the salaries would go up to…
Mr. Carmichael, $31,800, and $31,500, and 29. Okay, based on those additions, is your funds going to be sufficient to support your budget request?
Mr. Thompson, Right now that fund has between $155,000 to $160,000.
Mr. Weltz, It's 156,000-some odd dollars.
Mr. Thompson, So basically if the economy is to drop off, no, it's not going to support any of it.
Mr. Carmichael, Well, true.
Ms. Riley, You have $137,500.
Mr. Weltz, She's saying $137,500.
Mr. Thompson, Well the last figures I got from Pat…
Ms. Riley, There may be something she has…
Mr. Weltz, She might…
Mr. Thompson, Right. Yes, Pat totaled up figures for me.
Mr. Carmichael, Did you have something to say about this, Rita?
Mr. Poparad, What's the total…
Mr. Carmichael, If they don't have sufficient funds?
Mr. Thompson, The total number in the budget that we have right here that is proposed is $436,518.
Mr. Poparad, Well…
Mr. Carmichael, Rita had…
Mr. Poparad, Oh, I'm sorry.
Mr. Carmichael, The floor, Bob.
Mr. Poparad, Oh, I didn't hear her.
Mrs. Stevenson, I propose that we go ahead and make a motion to approve, but if the funds are not there for these new ones, then the people would have to go home.
Mr. Thompson, And that has been made clear to me by people that are on this board.
Mrs. Stevenson, Exactly. But I mean, if it isn't spoken, it's not going to be carried through. We just need to verify it, and make sure everybody's in agreement on that. Because you don't know. This is something new, you don't know for sure how much you are going to have.
Mr. Thompson, I know. I agree.
Mr. Poparad, You're…
Mr. Thompson, I mean, this is…
Mr. Carmichael, Okay, it's understood.
Mr. Poparad, Yes, your, based on July until the end of the year, double it, you're only at $300,000 for this year.
Mr. Thompson, Also, the new fee schedule kicked it.
Mr. Poparad, It didn't kick in, when did it kick in?
Mr. Thompson, January 1st.
Mr. Weltz, January one.
Mr. Thompson, So I mean, with the new fee schedule, the…
Mr. Poparad, The only, I agree wholeheartedly with Rita. The problem I have is, government has a hard time telling people to go home. That's all I'm saying. Don't fill these slots yet, until you see the revenue come up.
Mr. Weltz, Well basically, I think that's what we're looking at, and if the demand isn't there for certain spots, then no, we're not going to fill those slots unless the demand is there.
Mr. Poparad, Well how many new slots are you looking at, Ray? You looking at two?
Mrs. Stevenson, Two.
Mr. Poparad, Right. That's my point.
Mr. Thompson, As far as one of the slots that would be new, such as the Code Enforcement Officer, I've got to come back in front of this board. I want to do a job description/job classification, but before I even get to that point, I've got to convince my own board, and then go to the county commissioners, that we've got the money and we're capable of doing this.
Mr. Poparad, I agree with it wholeheartedly, but I mean, you know I sit on the Plan Commission and…
Mr. Thompson, Right.
Mr. Poparad, And I'm telling you that when you run out of money, the commissioners and you are going to be sitting in front of us wanting to fund it, because John Evans already made that statement, and its already in the ordinance. And the whole intent of this was this was to be stand alone on the fees, that's why we raised the fees.
Mr. Thompson, Correct.
Mr. Poparad, What's your anticipated revenue with the new fee structure?
Mr. Thompson, I'm hoping if, I mean, a lot of this has been projected on the basis of the last 10 to 15 years.
Mr. Poparad, What if it isn't the same as the last 10 or 15 years?
Mr. Thompson, I'm hoping with the new fee structure that we should be able to collect $425,000 to $450,000.
Mr. Poparad, Which is exactly what your budget is.
Mr. Thompson, Correct.
Mr. Poparad, So you have zero wiggle room in your budget. You have less than 5% wiggle room. Interest rates go up 2%, 1%, housing slows down, you're going to fall short.
Mr. Thompson, Correct.
Mr. Poparad, Then you're going to be in here asking us for money.
Mr. Thompson, I.
Mr. Poparad, You will. I mean, let's be honest, so.
Mr. Carmichael, Alright, Bob, my conversation with you in listening to what the commissioners had to say, you have a formidable task ahead of you.
Mr. Thompson, Correct.
Mr. Carmichael, There's a lot your plate, and I understand that.
Mr. Thompson, Right.
Mr. Carmichael, It has to be done, and it has to be done now. And I think in the CEDIT budget they have allowed some money for a consultant. Is that correct?
Mr. Thompson, Correct.
Mr. Carmichael, That's in there?
Mr. Thompson, Correct.
Mr. Carmichael, And you'll be working with that consultant?
Mr. Thompson, Correct.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay. I know you have a lot your plate, and I know you have a lot you're behind in right now, as you reported to us awhile back with your zoning violations and inspections, is it?
Mr. Poparad, That's what the code guy is for.
Mr. Carmichael, Code enforcement.
Mr. Thompson, And then one position…
Mr. Poparad, And I'm, you know, I'm not adverse to that position either, I'm just, you're running so close on your money.
Mr. Steele, Bob, what is the consultant going to advise you on, and how much is that going to cost?
Mr. Thompson, The consultant is going to be redoing…
Mr. Poparad, The master plan.
Mr. Thompson, All of our subdivision and zoning ordinances.
Mr. Poparad, What have we got, 100…
Mr. Thompson, I submitted the estimate to the county commissioners.
Mr. Steele, Excuse me?
Mr. Thompson, $200,000 to redo all of the ordinances.
Mr. Steele, And where's that money coming from?
Mr. Poparad, The CEDIT.
Mr. Steele, CEDIT.
Mr. Thompson, The CEDIT.
Mrs. Knoblock, Was that after that big development? What did you call it?
Mr. Carmichael, Well I've heard some expression from the county commissioners that we've got to get a handle on this subdivision business in Porter County. There's some different ideas floating around out there, and I think there's some sound ones. I know when Mike was with the whole operation, we kept a very close handle on it. But still, it's, you know, we're bursting at the seams with subdivisions, and I think something has to be done to…
Mr. Thompson, Well for the record this year…
Mr. Carmichael, Organize this whole thing, and you know, set better standards than what we have had in the past, because there so many exceptions I see with these; building along the front of the road, and not worrying about the back of the road, and then coming back later, and building the back of a subdivision. You know, it's kind of a piecemeal thing, and I think that, in my own opinion, has to be eliminated. If you buy, if you have a parcel you can't be dividing 40 acres into four 10 acre parcels, and developing each one separately. That doesn't get it.
Mr. Thompson, That's something we're going to be looking at, and basically we're going to be looking at all of the codes. Just to let you know, I mean, we broke the record this year for the number of single family residential home starts, the permits we issued was 509. Our past 15-year average has been at 455, so we were better than 50 from the past average.
Mr. Poparad, There's no denying how busy you guys are.
Mr. Thompson, Yes.
Mr. Poparad, It's just you're basing your budget on that kind of revenue, and when that revenue falls, it's just going to be tough for you to tell somebody to stay home, that's all, I'm just…
Mr. Thompson, I know, and based on what I was trying to do with the fee structure and everything, the source of information I have was basically based on the past 10 or 15 years, and it has been good times for the past 10, 15 years, so I'm, yes, I'm…
Mr. Weltz, But even as the national report said today in the paper, we've had a national, we've had a 2% growth. They anticipate that growth to stay at 2% the first half of the year, and it may drop to 1½% growth on the national level, and I don't anticipate seeing us dropping that much within this next year.
Mr. Thompson, Since I know this is new, if you all want reports on what's happening there, I'll be more than happy to develop a report.
Mr. Carmichael, Well I think Bob can deliver that to us. He's our representative.
Mr. Poparad, I mean, no, it's crazy, it really is. I mean, I was shocked when I found out how busy they are. I'm just worried about them running out of money.
Mr. Carmichael, Right.
Mr. Poparad, That's all I'm saying. There's no denying the need for these people, but the need has been here for five years. Now that they have a stand-alone budget, which is what our intent was, they're, you know, they can carry the balance over, they don't have to spend it all; they can.
Mr. Hollenbeck, Not…
Mr. Poparad, Bring in that amount of money, that's all.
Mr. Hollenbeck, Not to advocate revisiting the fee structure, but obviously the whole ability to create the fee is a function of what it costs you to run the department.
Mr. Poparad, Right.
Mr. Hollenbeck, And if the fees are not generating enough money to run the department, then…
Mr. Poparad, Right.
Mr. Hollenbeck, That's something that has to be…
Mr. Poparad, I don't know, I don't know…
Mr. Weltz, That would average that, when there is a time set, come, what is it, March, April?
Mr. Thompson, Yes, we have to review the fee structure…
Mr. Weltz, Then it would be reviewed.
Mr. Thompson, And that was based on part of the ordinances that we did create that, in May we have to start looking at, and then by June make a decision on whether or not this fee structure is working for everybody. So we're going to be instantly kittying that up in the first few months.
Mr. Carmichael, Mike, did you have some input on that with the Builders Association?
Michael Aylesworth, The Builders Association spoke at the commissioners' meeting very favorably to this concept, because we've long believed that the fees generated from the Plan Commission for building and zoning should go to help pay for those inspections that are needed and the oversight. And to make it a self-contained fund, we like the concept and I'd like to thank the Plan Commission and Bob and Ray for coming up with this, so it's not a drain on the general treasury. And I wrote a letter to our association supporting this, and our association strongly backs this, and we're following it with interest also, because the builders do need up-to-date, current inspections. They need people that go out in the field and do their jobs, so we can do our jobs.
Mr. Poparad, Absolutely.
Mr. Aylesworth, That's what this is all about.
Mr. Poparad, Right, and by the same token, when they raise the fee structure to support themselves, you guys aren't going to say nothing, are you? If you want it to be self supporting? That's all I'm saying.
Mr. Aylesworth, That's correct. My concern was, and I've expressed it to the commissioners. I don't think Com. Harper was on board at the time. Our concern from the building association was, if they run short, don't come whining back for more money, and they said, oh no, we'll, the County's obligated to pay for this, the Council will pay for it.
Mr. Poparad, I rest my case.
Mr. Aylesworth, I live in the real world, I know that it isn't going to happen. So Bob and Ray of the Bob and Ray Show have worked very hard to come up with what I think is a very conscientious balanced budget for their department. If building turns down, they aren't going to need the inspectors; they can lay people off. It gives them a little more flexibility. So we like the concept, so that's why I strongly support it, and I want it to roll and see where it goes.
Mr. Carmichael, Thank you, Mike.
Mr. Poparad moved to approve the 2004 Plan Commission & Building Department budget as discussed (retroactive to December 29, 2003). Mrs. Conover seconded.
Mrs. Knoblock, What's your motion again then?
Mr. Poparad, To approve their request, the whole budget.
Mr. Carmichael, To approve the request for the Plan Commission, on the 144 Form…
Mr. Ruge, They will be paid out of fees?
Mr. Carmichael, Yes, that's the intent. Okay?
Mr. Steele, Do we have an agreement that if we don't get the money there will be, you guys will make an adjustment within your office to…
Mr. Weltz, We would have to make adjustments.
Mr. Thompson, I can only speak on my side. Ray's the Building Department, he's still under commissioner control. You're not going to see me up here asking for, creating a job description for the code enforcement officer unless I know I definitely have the money to be able to pay out what I have for existing employees in there, and be able to take care of the boards.
Mr. Carmichael, Do you include your boards in this too?
Mr. Thompson, Yes, the boards are included, I mean, that's…
Mr. Weltz, Everything.
Mr. Carmichael, Do you get paid for sitting on that?
Mr. Steele, 50 bucks.
Mr. Poparad, I never see it. She never pays me.
Mr. Thompson, The boards…
Mrs. Knoblock, I can't take it.
Mr. Thompson, I'll point that out, I mean, one of the things is the Plan Commission is going back to two meetings a month, so I had to increase.
Mr. Poparad, So cut it in half. Do away with it, I don't care. You sure as hell ain't getting rich by sitting for four or five hours a night now, let me tell you.
Mr. Thompson, To operate all the boards, it's only $10,700.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay, if you say it real fast it's not very much, huh.
Mr. Thompson, Well it's going up $6,000 from last year.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay. Alright, the motion has been made and seconded to allow the 144 Form…
Mr. Poparad, With the raise included on the salaries, the $1,000.
Mr. Carmichael, With the, yes, with the same equivalent of any other employee in the County, receives in 19, in 2004.
Ms. Riley, Even the two bottom, the two new ones? They get the $1,000 raise?
Mr. Poparad, No.
Mr. Steele, No.
Ms. Riley, They will stay right where they're at.
Mr. Poparad, Right.
Ms. Riley, Okay.
Mr. Carmichael, The two bottom ones are the assistant planner, is that right.
Mr. Thompson, No, the two bottom ones are the code enforcement officer, which will be a brand new position, which we'll have to come in front of this board to create if we see the money, and we explained the building inspector position.
Mr. Weltz, That was a position that was eliminated during the budget cuts, due to the fact that, if I would have eliminated anything else out of my budget, I'd of had to lay my part-time people off four months into the year. I had no other option but to cut a full-time slot.
Mr. Carmichael, That sounds familiar. Okay, but now they will be taken out of the fee account.
Mr. Weltz, Right.
Mr. Carmichael, Does everybody understand that?
Mr. Poparad, Could we ask for a balance every month, shoved in our box?
Mr. Carmichael, Sheila has the balance.
Mr. Poparad, Well that would come up, is this, I don't see it on the sheet, Sheila. That's why I'm asking.
Mr. Carmichael, You'll get it on your…
Ms. Riley, It is fund, it should be on there.
Mr. Poparad, Is it?
Ms. Riley, 230…
Mr. Poparad, Okay.
Mr. Thompson, 229, I thought.
Ms. Riley, 229.
Mr. Poparad, Okay, thanks.
Ms. Riley, You see it?
Mr. Poparad, Yes.
Mr. Carmichael, You got it. Roll call.
Motion carried on a unanimous roll call vote.
Ms. Riley, Retro 12-29?
Mr. Poparad, Yes, that was my intent. Yes, I just assumed you knew that.
Mr. Carmichael, Does the motion and the second agree with that? They nodded their head yes, they agree. Okay, the motion carries.
Mr. Thompson, Thank you.
Mr. Weltz, Thank you.
Mrs. Stevenson, Bob, the new fund is 239.
Mr. Carmichael, 239 is the budget?
Mr. Weltz, Yes.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay. Do you have that, Bob?
Mr. Poparad, Yes, $116,811.
COMMISSIONERS 01.30
Transfer
$175 from 2110 Office Supplies to 2410 Medical & Dental
Mr. Carmichael, The commissioners are requesting a $175 transfer from Office Supplies to Medical & Dental. What's the Council's pleasure?
Mrs. Conover and Mr. Steele moved to grant the request for transfer of funds submitted by the Commissioners, $175 from 2110 Office Supplies to 2410 Medical & Dental. Mr. Ruge seconded, motion carried on a unanimous voice vote.
Mr. Carmichael, Don't get up, Bob, it's okay. Assessor.
ASSESSOR 01.09
144 Form
Data Entry from $0 to $18,699
ASSESSOR REASSESSMENT 08.09
Transfer
$4,000 from 1120 Hourly to 1130 Overtime.
$5,000 from 3730 Lease Purchase to 1130 Overtime
Mr. Carmichael, The Assessor, oh, here she comes.
Shirley LaFever, I'm passing this out to each of you.
Mr. Carmichael, The request is for an employee position for Data Entry, $18,699.
Mrs. LaFever, I submitted letters to you on December 22nd, explaining that I wanted, I had a full-time position. I had to give up my full-time position from my 10% cut two years ago. It was the only money I had in my budget to give back. I sent you a letter December 22nd--I hope each of you spent some time reading the letter from December 22nd-- explaining to you what is going on in the county assessor's office, and the additional workload, and now we got more additional workload with, we'll have over 4,000 appeals and they're still coming in on a daily basis.
I have a person that's been working part-time all year. She's been trained all year. She has her Level I already, and I would like to move her into the full-time position that I did have, which I cut two years ago. I'm going to have to have more help in here to do the work. We have over 4,000 appeals. We also have 8,000 sales disclosures last year that we have to review, put on the amount of assessed value, put on the money amount, make copies of them, get them out to the township assessor, and they've got to be to the state. This is a new law that went into effect last year. I've not gotten them to the state yet because I don't have the manpower to get the stuff to the state, and the state understands that. But this year we're supposed to do our best to get this information via email or Excel forms.
Also we took over the tax exempts a year ago; the auditor's office used to do the exemptions. The law changed, and my office took that job on. We managed last year even with losing the one full-time person, with all the complications and all the extra work we had with the township assessors. I can handle last year. We had people that worked, who did some comp-time, that worked overtime to get the exemptions done and the sales disclosures. I had the part-time employees doing that.
With the appeals process, I cannot run that office, and by law, have those appeals finished within six months without having another full-time person. I can work, I mean, I need to hire another part-time person to be able to answer the phone to answer questions from the taxpayers, realtors and title companies. I have a person already trained in place. She's worked very hard this year to learn the system. She knows how to do the Plexis, computer entry for the township trustee assessors. She knows personal property. So we just have to teach her the exemptions and the appeal process.
I asking before you, I know you have, I know that you say you cannot hire nobody because we don't have the money in our budget. We couldn't make changes to our budget last year because we had to submit the same budget we did the previous year. So how do you ever get your full-time position back is my question. This is the position I had to give up in order to do my 10% cut. The smaller budgets, we don't have extra money where we can give money back to the Council without eliminating a position. I'm begging you to let me reinstate my full-time position.
If you do not have the money in the general fund to pay for the position, I gave you each a copy of the reassessment law, which I can hire someone and pay them out of the reassessment budget. Also, I can pay that person part-time out of the reassessment budget, and also out of the sales disclosure budget at the same time. It'll be a little bit, it will be, not the same time, excuse me. It'll be for bookkeeping, to keep hours separate from what they're working on everyday. But I can pay it all out of the reassessment money. When they're working on sales disclosures, I have a sales disclosure fund that it can be paid out of that.
If you cannot fund it out of the general money, that's where it was at in the past. I'm asking you, can I hire a person, a replacement person I lost two years ago, and hire them from my reassessment fund or my sales disclosure fund.
Mrs. Stevenson, At that point, are those funds going to come short before the end of 2004?
Mrs. LaFever, No.
Mrs. Knoblock, And that's including benefits also?
Mrs. LaFever, If I can pay the benefits, I will. I did talk to the county commissioners, they're stilling discussing about paying the entrance package. If they cannot pay it, I'll have to also take that additional money out of the reassessment fund or the sales disclosure fund, either one. Either one, by law I can do it.
Mr. Steele, Shirley, with all these assessors, how do you divide up the reassessment funds, and how much is in that fund? Isn't that supposed to accumulate over the four years so that you have the money when the assessment comes up that you can hire the extra help to do the job?
Mrs. LaFever, Yes, Al. On the paper I gave you tonight, it tells you what percentage is collected out of the tax money to go into the reassessment fund. The money from the township assessors, they present a budget to the county council every year on reassessment, and the county council approves their budget. They denied the budget for 2004, we did not have a budget for 2003. The county assessor is the only one that's got a reassessment budget for this county until the next reassessment. But they do their own budget. They submit it to the council, and you guys vote on the budgets individually. Sheila can give me the balance on what's in my reassessment fund at this time.
Ms. Riley, $721,127.83.
Mrs. LaFever, And, Sheila, how much in my sales disclosure fund at this time?
Ms. Riley, $42,085.71.
Mrs. LaFever, So I mean, I'm only asking for her to start at $18,699, and if I have to pick up the entrance package, I will have to come up with $20,000. And I've got what, $700,000 in there, and more is going to be put in there next May after tax bills are out, next spring. It goes in there every time a tax bill, the remainder of the money goes into the reassessment fund. But I have to watch that very carefully because that's to work on our next reassessment, 2009. So I think it should come out of the general fund. But I'm saying if we cannot fund it out of the general fund, will you allow me to pay for it out of the other funds so I can hire this person back.
Mr. Steele, But do we have to have extra monies? Do we have enough money out of the reassessment fund to do the reassessment this year or do we have to appropriate additional funds?
Mrs. LaFever, We do not have reassessment this year, Al.
Mr. Steele, No. Wait, isn't this a cumulative fund like the bridge fund so that in four years if you have to have this money for extra help and so forth, you can do, or you use it as you go along.
Mrs. LaFever, Yes. Yes, John?
Mr. Ruge, Making this, making this person who is not allowed part, part-time or a regular full-time salary, would that be actually a saving?
Mr. Steele, No.
Mr. Ruge, If she's a part?
Mrs. LaFever, If I pay her the per hourly rate, the money almost comes out to the same. It's just the entrance package.
Mr. Poparad, Is she working 30 hours?
Mr. Ruge, She's now a part-time employee?
Mrs. LaFever, Yes.
Mr. Ruge, Would making her a full-time, would that be saving money?
Mrs. LaFever, It would almost be a, she's part-time working, and she's working 35 hours a week now, Bob. And she will continue to work 35 hours a week because I need that body. But in almost reality, the money is almost exactly the same except the benefits.
Mr. Ruge, The same amount of money?
Mrs. LaFever, It's a little bit less working her part-time, and the difference will be the entrance package and the benefits. That would be the difference in money, John.
Mr. Poparad, Is she running out of hours?
Mr. Ruge, She didn't answer my question.
Mrs. LaFever, I'm sorry. Is it going to be a savings?
Mr. Ruge, This person, up to now, has been working on part-time salary so much an hour?
Mrs. LaFever, Correct.
Mr. Ruge, Now you want her to be full-time, would that be a savings of money then?
Mrs. LaFever, No, it would not be a savings, it would be a little bit more money.
Mr. Ruge, What?
Mrs. LaFever, It will not be a savings of money, John, no. But I need another body. I'm sorry, Bob, what was your question?
Mr. Poparad, No, John's got it. Is she out of hours to where she has to become full-time or go away? Are we at that point?
Mrs. LaFever, I've worked her part-time, and when I ran out of money, she was taken, I put under the job function in the office and the trustee paid her, her rest of the year last year, so I could keep somebody in there five days a week working.
Mr. Poparad, Can we pay part-time out of the reassessment fund?
Mrs. LaFever, You can pay part-time, full-time, whatever out of the reassessment fund.
Mr. Hollenbeck, Shirley's reassessment…
Mrs. LaFever, She's part-time now.
Mr. Hollenbeck, Shirley's reassessment fund grows at approximately $375,000 a year…
Mrs. LaFever, Yes.
Mr. Hollenbeck, Is what she gets. And you've got a balance of 721.
Mrs. LaFever, So Sheila says.
Mrs. Stevenson, How long does it have to stretch for?
Mrs. LaFever, Well the next reassessment, that will all change with 2009. But in 2005, we start a trend again, so we'll be using money in 2005 to do some training to straighten out the mess we've got now.
Mrs. Stevenson, Would that come short by 2009?
Mrs. LaFever, I don't think so, Rita. No, I don't think so, not with what we're collecting.
Mr. Hollenbeck, It would have to be a real train wreck.
Mrs. LaFever, Yes, there's no way.
Mr. Hollenbeck, Which it could be by '09 to not have enough money in there.
Mrs. LaFever, Right, and I'll watch it very carefully.
Mr. Poparad, Nine years off, I think the property tax system will be gone, but I mean, that's a whole other discussion. The question I'm having, and I don't understand. You've got somebody in there 35 hours a week.
Mrs. LaFever, Right.
Mr. Poparad, Which is the equivalent of a full-time person.
Mrs. LaFever, Correct.
Mr. Poparad, But she's considered part-time.
Mrs. LaFever, Correct.
Mr. Poparad, You just want to make her full-time so we have…
Mrs. LaFever, I want to make her full-time to free up my part-time money so I can hire more people to help us in the next several months.
Mr. Poparad, Correct. Well we can pay part-time out of reassessment, you just said.
Mrs. LaFever, Yes.
Mr. Hollenbeck, It says temporary help.
Mr. Poparad, Right. So why don't we just pay her out of reassessment money, and not make her full-time? I don't understand the whole…
Mrs. LaFever, I had a full-time position. I need that other…
Mr. Poparad, Well she is working full-time?
Mrs. LaFever, She's working, most of the time she's working full-time, yes.
Mr. Poparad, Right. So we're not creating a new position, we're just making this part-time position full-time.
Mrs. LaFever, I'm not creating a position. This is a position on my 144 that I still have.
Mr. Poparad, Correct, right.
Mrs. LaFever, But I don't have the money, because I had to give it back two years ago.
Mr. Poparad, Correct.
Mrs. LaFever, I've never eliminated my position. It's always been on my 144.
Mr. Steele, We're setting a precedent here. We're hiring back part-time. People hire on part-time, then they want to make them full-time. You've told me the stories of some of the other departments where they didn't come before the board, and ask for this, which you are doing, and giving us the full story, and these people move on. In the case of this lady, we're going to be putting four more people on the insurance program, her, her two children and her husband. Then we have to pay PERF. I mean, and this goes on, and on, and on. This is what we stopped, and now it's coming back out again little by little.
Mrs. LaFever, I understand that, Al. I understand completely.
Mr. Steele, And if we have the money to get the job done, which we have in the assessment fund, let's get the job done, we just can't, it's this extra money on the side that really breaks us.
Mrs. LaFever, When do we ever get to get our position back that we had two years ago?
Mr. Steele, Well as long as you're getting the job done, what makes the difference about the position?
Mrs. LaFever, Because I'm using my, I'm using part-time money now, which you're saying I can hire, I can put more part-time money in. I can pay her by part-time money, that's fine. I'll end up probably with two or three more part-time people.
Mr. Steele, You're going to set a precedent here, and it's going to spread throughout.
Mrs. LaFever, If I'm not, if I misunderstood you, and correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. Thompson just created two new positions, and is going to pay it out of the user fees. Why can't I have a full-time position and pay it out of the reassessment fund? What's the difference there? The assessors, we have busted our tails to get the job done, to get the money to the County.
Mr. Steele, That's the reorganization down there too, you know. The two departments went together and so forth.
Mrs. LaFever, Right, I understand that. But still it's two more people hired for the county; it's still going to be two more people on the payroll, no matter how you slice it. Am I wrong?
Mr. Steele, But they're funding it themselves. The reassessment kind of belongs to everybody to get the reassessment job done. You know, no one is depending on their money to get something else done. They're using it within their own department. This reassessment fund is a backup. That's why they have a fund like this. It isn't something just to be wasted all the time.
Mrs. LaFever, This is, I do not waste this fund. This fund is only to be used for assessors, nobody else.
Mr. Steele, That's what I said, but it's for assessors, if we get in trouble in the assessing department or whatever, in the assessing period, that's what this is for. It's like the bridge fund, you keep it in case you have a bridge go down or something, you know. This is different than a…
Mrs. LaFever, If you want to deny me, that's fine. But I want it to go on the record, I'm denied. So I will be back every time to make sure no other county employees gets a new employee, no other person gets a new employee in this county.
Mr. Steele, Isn't that…
Mrs. LaFever, If you want to vote against it, that's fine.
Mr. Steele, Is that what we're talking about?
Mrs. LaFever, But I want it on the record I was voted against.
Mr. Steele, Yes.
Mr. Poparad, I mean, you have the employee.
Mrs. LaFever, I have the employee, but I need four part-time employees, Bob.
Mr. Poparad, Right, but, so you could hire more part-time people?
Mrs. LaFever, But it's not exactly easy to get anybody that's qualified.
Mr. Poparad, I'm just saying, you can hire more people, part-time people, and pay them with the reassessment money, and fill your workload. Then when all your appeals are done, and your sales disclosures are…
Mrs. LaFever, We're never going to be finished with sales disclosures.
Mr. Poparad, I mean, when this big, especially the appeals, when that all goes away, then you can tell the part-time people to go home.
Mrs. LaFever, Right.
Mr. Poparad, When they're full-time people, and all this increased workload disappears, they're not going to go home. I mean, I would advocate you hiring more people part-time out of your reassessment. Get your work done, don't, you know, don't put yourself in a hole, and then when you want…
Mrs. LaFever, We're in a hole. We're dying down there right now.
Mr. Poparad, Well, what I'm saying is, it appears we can hire, she can hire part-time out of reassessment, then I would think you'd hire some part-time people to get this work done, and then when the work's, you know, when you catch up, then they go home, instead…
Mrs. LaFever, No one in Porter County can ever hire another new employee is what you are telling me.
Mr. Poparad, No.
Mrs. LaFever, No other department that's going to come before you and hire another employee.
Mr. Poparad, No, I didn't say that. I'm just saying, you have the ability to hire part-time people out of the reassessment fund that has a few hundred thousand dollars in it, which is way more than anybody else…
Mrs. LaFever, The money just got put in there because of our tax bills going out. That's the only reason we got the money in, because of the assessors.
Mrs. Stevenson, I've got a question for Sandy.
Mr. Poparad, I'm not done.
Mrs. Stevenson, Okay.
Mr. Poparad, Okay, you did your job, you got our taxes, thank you. Now, all I'm saying is, you have the ability, and probably half a million dollars to hire some part-time people. I suggest you go hire some part-time people instead of trying to make more full-time positions for this building, then when your workload disappears, they're not standing around looking at each other.
Mrs. LaFever, Bob, the workload is not going to disappear.
Mr. Poparad, Then hire more part-timers.
Mrs. LaFever, We've had 500 permits in the county. Who do you think has to go do all that work for those permits? The assessors do. The workload all comes into our office after all the new construction. The work is not going to end.
Mr. Poparad, I agree with you 100%; I'm not denying the amount of work.
Mrs. LaFever, The state has given us two more job functions, which we did not have. The state is making changes all the time.
Mr. Poparad, Okay.
Mr. Steele, Hire part-time help, and get the job done.
Mrs. LaFever, And where are you going to get capable part-time people, Bob?
Mr. Steele, I'll tell you what, you can train anybody in this room to do your job.
Mr. Poparad, You've got them now. You've got them now, don't you?
Mrs. LaFever, You've got to come down and see my job, and see if you can train anybody to do the job.
Mr. Steele, Do you want me to come down and spend a month with you?
Mrs. LaFever, I'd love for you to come down and spend time with me, Al. I'd love to.
Mr. Poparad, I'm not saying…
Mrs. LaFever, Chesterton has…
Mr. Poparad, Shirley, I'm not saying you don't have the work. All I'm saying is, you have the ability with the reassessment fund to hire some part-time people to get it worked out, that's all.
Mrs. LaFever, Bob, I'm like any other assessor. We cannot find competent people to pay that's going to stay on, and learn the job.
Mr. Poparad, Then who are you going to hire if we create four full-time positions? Who are you going to hire?
Mrs. LaFever, I didn't ask for four full-time positions.
Mr. Poparad, No, I said, right now, if I make a motion to create four full-time positions…
Mrs. LaFever, I don't know, I'd have to find them.
Mr. Poparad, That's my point.
Mrs. LaFever, I'd have to find them. I hired part-time people to get our computer work done. Most assessors, we did not use inexperienced people.
Mr. Poparad, If Kuzman's bills go through in this session, in two years you'll have lots of assessors that will be looking for a job.
Mrs. LaFever, I guarantee you, we will not be.
Mr. Ruge, This is not a new person, is it?
Mrs. LaFever, This is my old job; this is my old position I had, John, before.
Mr. Ruge, This isn't a new person you're hiring?
Mrs. LaFever, It's a new person, but not a new position.
Mr. Ruge, What?
Mrs. LaFever, It's a new person, but not a new position.
Mr. Ruge, It's a new person?
Mrs. LaFever, But not a new position. The position, I had the position, I gave back the money for the 10% cut, that's the only money I had to cut.
Mr. Ruge, It is a new person?
Mrs. LaFever, It's a new body, but…
Mr. Ruge, I thought it was the same person that was working part-time, and now be a full-time. It's not the same person?
Mrs. LaFever, The person I had full-time…
Mr. Ruge, It's not the same? It's not the same person?
Mrs. LaFever, The person I had full-time is no longer working.
Mr. Ruge, It's not the same person then?
Mrs. LaFever, No, she left.
Mrs. Stevenson, Can I ask Sandy a question?
Mr. Carmichael, Okay.
Mr. Ruge, That's a…
Mr. Carmichael, Rita.
Mrs. Stevenson, Sandy, after all the work is done through the assessors, does the work go to you?
Mrs. Vuko, The majority of it, yes.
Mrs. Stevenson, How do you handle the workload?
Mrs. Vuko, I have to handle it the way I have been. I gave up three employees, and we just handle it. I mean, I don't have the money.
Mrs. LaFever, All the workload that's appeals does not go to the county auditor's office. The sales disclosures do not go down there. They start, then they come to ours, but once we get done, they do not go back to you.
Mrs. Vuko, Well I know.
Mrs. LaFever, The 133's and that go to your office, the 122's.
Mrs. Vuko, Yes, we helped out with them.
Mrs. LaFever, Right, when you have thousands of them.
Mrs. Vuko, Right.
Mrs. LaFever, We know that.
Mrs. Stevenson, About what percent from Shirley goes to you?
Mrs. LaFever, On what job? There's many different jobs though.
Mrs. Vuko, Yes, there's a lot, so.
Mrs. LaFever, Right.
Mrs. Vuko, Are you talking everything? Only about 70%. Do you agree, Shirley?
Mrs. LaFever, Well it depends on what we are talking about. Are we talking about 133's, 122's? The appeals are not going to be coming to you, the PTABOA handles all the appeals.
Mrs. Stevenson, I'm just saying, everything in general that leaves your office, how much goes to…
Mrs. Vuko, The appeals come to us after the fact, when the corrections…
Mrs. LaFever, If we have to do a refund.
Mrs. Vuko, Exactly.
Mrs. LaFever, Right.
Mrs. Vuko, So eventually somewhat of everything kind of trickles down.
Mrs. LaFever, One way or another we pass that back and forth, right. We do it between us.
Mrs. Vuko, Right.
Mrs. Knoblock, Shirley, why don't we, like we talked earlier, why don't we try the part-time, and then see how you get along with it.
Mrs. LaFever, That's fine, I have no problem. I just wanted to make precedent to come before you tonight so you vote to deny me so that I can come back at a later date to ask this position be reinstated. We cannot do it at budget hearing time, like we should be able to do it then. We cannot do it now. When are we ever going to get our position back? I'm short one person all the time. If you cannot approve that, then will you approve me to pay my employees that's going to be working on the appeals? They've been working the last two weeks on overtime money, which that is going to eat up a lot of money--overtime money. But I need some extra help somewhere.
Mr. Ruge, Does this new person have experience in assessing?
Mrs. LaFever, Yes, she's a Level I.
Mr. Ruge, What?
Mrs. LaFever, Yes, John, she's a Level I.
Mr. Carmichael, A Level I assessor.
Mrs. LaFever, A Level I assessor, yes.
Mr. Ruge, She's not a new person then, is she?
Mrs. LaFever, She's been working part-time for me.
Mr. Carmichael, Let's take five minutes to relax. It's a waiting a problem.
At this time, there was a five-minute break.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay, let's continue with the request from the assessor. Does anyone have a question or input?
Mrs. Conover, I'd like to have some input please.
Mr. Carmichael, Karen.
Mrs. Conover, There's a fine line between the generated funds such as the building fund and property tax dollars, and reassessment is property tax dollars. We, two years ago, had a lot of cuts and we had personnel cuts. Some of them are deemed permanent; some offices have gotten along; some are getting by. Your office should have some sense of normality, maybe after this appeals process.
Mrs. LaFever, Afterwards, yes.
Mrs. Conover, After the, you know, the upcoming appeals process. The lion's share of the nightmare, you guys got through it, and now you're dealing with the fallout. Is that a fair assessment?
Mrs. LaFever, Our nightmare as the county assessor only begun with these appeals. The township assessors was getting it into the computer system, but our nightmare has only begun with the appeals.
Mrs. Conover, With the appeals process?
Mrs. LaFever, Right.
Mrs. Conover, And so for the next six months or so, you're going to be turned upside down.
Mrs. LaFever, The law says six months. I don't know if we can make it in six months, and the state knows that.
Mrs. Conover, Okay. With that said and done--I know this--I've heard this from other office holders that have had to permanently lose staff at this point in time, and some of them had to reduce their hours. All of us in government now--because I work daytime at the building across the street--it's a bad time of year in government.
Mrs. LaFever, Right.
Mrs. Conover, It is, and we have a lot of extra duties, phones to answer, customers to wait on at our counters and whatnot. And because you have the luxury of another property tax fund--the assessment fund--do you think it's feasible to get by with a couple more part-time people to help your overflow?
Mrs. LaFever, We can; we'll do the best we can do with part-time people. But I just don't ever see any incentive to have a part-time person. She worked very hard this year to get her Level I, and hoping that maybe I could refill that position at one time. And I hate to lose her. I mean, these tests are not easy to come by and pass those tests, and she has worked very hard to learn the job functions of all the offices, of all the office, and hoping she would be able to come full-time one day. And, like I said, if I get denied, that's, I'm perfectly okay with it, but I need you to okay money for overtime. But I just wanted to make sure, this is January, and I want to make sure that no one else in the county can come before you, and maybe get people approved throughout the year, Karen, if I get denied.
Mrs. Conover, Well, the positions…
Mrs. LaFever, We all should be treated the same.
Mrs. Conover, That have been relinquished have not been replaced. The cuts that you made, and some of the other departments and office holders have not been replaced positions.
Mrs. LaFever, Right.
Mrs. Conover, Even though in some situations they've hurt that department. We take it one a case-by-case basis.
Mrs. LaFever, Right.
Mrs. Conover, It's not, because Shirley didn't get it, that so and so is going to get it, or Shirley should be upset about that.
Mrs. LaFever, Right.
Mrs. Conover, But is it a fair assessment--no pun intended--to say that six, seven months down the road your office isn't going to have this horrendous appeals process that its going through right now.
Mrs. LaFever, It's not going to be probably finished in six to seven months. It's probably going to, the state requires us six months, with the 4,000 appeals that we have, and how much work is going to be involved, I don't expect me being finished for a year or a year and a half. But we're going to do the best we can do to be finished in six months. I do not know that until we get into it, to really start reading the appeals and see what we have to do, because it's very time-involved. You're welcome to come down and take a look at each appeal, how much documentation people have gave us with each appeal that we have to digest and look at.
Mrs. Conover, Shirley, you don't need to explain every aspect of it, because I sit on this board, and have gotten phone calls…
Mrs. LaFever, Right, sure you have.
Mrs. Conover, Myself, because of people unhappy with their assessment.
Mrs. LaFever, Right.
Mrs. Conover, So I do understand, there's a lot of, in some situations anger and animosity, and a heavier workload. But you've had an equally heavy workload here this past year, and you got a tremendous and horrendous task done.
Mrs. LaFever, The township assessors had to do most of that work. Our office didn't actually do all that work. I had to help organize it, but they actually did the work themselves. I'm not going to take credit for the township assessors. We helped them organize, and we helped, you know, to administrate it, but they actually did the work themselves. Our office has not been hit until the appeals come in.
Mrs. Conover, And that's what's happening now.
Mr. Carmichael, Shirley, when PTABOA denies a request on a hearing, and they go downstate, how do we pay for that? Who do we send downstate, and what's the extra cost involved in that?
Mrs. LaFever, We have not had to go downstate for several years now. We're hoping we can resolve these without going downstate. There is no money, Bill, to allow us when they go downstate to fight. Our consultant, if there's money left, he will go downstate to fight on behalf of the county assessors. We might have to hire attorneys. I mean, at one time, Dave…
Mr. Hollenbeck, I had indicated a willingness to try to help them.
Mrs. LaFever, Worked to try to get us money.
Mr. Hollenbeck, And that's a very good question, Bill, because since we last went downstate, the law has changed about how the appeal is handled.
Mrs. LaFever, Right.
Mr. Hollenbeck, It used to be, if somebody took us downstate, the starting point downstate was: We were right, and they had to prove us wrong. That's not the law anymore. Now it's much more of an even hearing, where if somebody appeals our decision, they go downstate; they basically get what lawyers call a trial to novo, which is a whole starting over again where the state person says, okay this hearing is open, Porter County, tell me why you're right; taxpayer tell me why you're right, and if we don't have anybody there articulating our case and defending us, we're in trouble. And that's an excellent question.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay. Now the biggest case that I sat in on and heard you debating up there the times I've sat in on those was Bethlehem Steel.
Mrs. LaFever, Correct.
Mr. Carmichael, And I understand that's all been withdrawn. Am I correct there?
Mrs. LaFever, They still cannot appeal until next year, but.
Mr. Hollenbeck, Well ISG.
Mrs. LaFever, I mean, yes, ISG.
Mr. Hollenbeck, Bethlehem, as part of our settlement with Bethlehem, they withdrew all of their appeals.
Mrs. LaFever, Well we did get…
Mr. Carmichael, That's gone.
Mrs. LaFever, But we did get United States Steel in for National for the appeal.
Mr. Hollenbeck, Right.
Mrs. LaFever, We got it setting out now, which is, it's going to take a lot of money.
Mr. Carmichael, Who took over?
Mrs. LaFever, US, United States Steel bought National. We have that appeal in our office now for USX.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay.
Mr. Hollenbeck, Part of our settlement with National Steel is that they abandon all their appeals, but US Steel has bought National, and they immediately appealed the current assessment out there.
Mrs. LaFever, Right.
Mr. Carmichael, Okay. We hired a firm to go in to do the personal property, is that right? Out of North Carolina or South Carolina?
Mrs. LaFever, We hired TMA to do audits of $50,000 assessed or more, yes.
Mr. Carmichael, Or higher. And what has been done in that area?
Mrs. LaFever, We have, we've got the money from |
