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BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS
Regular Meeting M I N U T E S The regular meeting of the Board of Zoning Appeals was held on January 24, 2008 at 6:30 p.m. in the Porter County Administration Center, 155 Indiana Avenue, Valparaiso, Indiana. Those members present were Richard Burns, Robert Detert, Debbie Kerr-Cook, Luther Williams and Marvin Brickner. Staff members present were Robert W. Thompson Jr., Fred M. Siminski, Attorney Scott McClure, Tracy Burrell and Toni Byers. Mr. Detert moved to waive reading of the minutes for the December 19, 2007 BZA meeting and to approve them as received in the mail. Mr. Burns seconded the motion, which carried on a unanimous voice vote.
Mr. Detert moved to nominate Mr. Brickner for Chairman for 2008. Mr. Burns seconded the motion, which carried on a 5-0 roll call vote. Mr. Burns moved to nominate Mr. Detert as Vice-Chairman for 2008. Mr. Brickner seconded the motion, which carried on a 5-0 roll call vote. Case 07-V-23. Petition of the Porter County Board of Commissioners, 155 Indiana Ave., Valparaiso, seeking Variances for a sign at the Porter County Expo Center, to vary the height from what is permitted from 8 feet to 31 feet; to allow for an electronic sign board; and to allow the sign to be 100 square feet in size, larger than the 46 square feet allowed, to be located at 215 E. Division Road, in Washington Township. (This Case was continued from the 10-17-07, 11-28-07 and 12-19-07 BZA meetings with the public hearing closed.) At this time, Mr. Siminski read a letter from John Thorstad, manager of the Porter County Expo Center, stating that he is ill and unable to attend tonight’s meeting and requesting a continuance of this case. Mr. Detert moved to continue Case 07-V-23 to the 2-20-08 BZA meeting. Mr. Burns seconded the motion, which carried on a 5-0 roll call vote. Case 98-UV-2. Gary Porch, 498 N. 250 W., Valparaiso, seeking a renewal of a Use Variance permitting a saw sharpening business, on the West side of CR 250 W., between SR 130 and CR 500 N., in Center Township. (This will be the last renewal available on this Petition.)
Mr. Siminski read a letter from the Petitioner stating that he closed the saw sharpening business three years ago and does not wish to renew this Use Variance at this time.
Mr. Burns moved to deny Case 98-UV-2. Mr. Detert seconded the motion, which carried on a 5-0 roll call vote.
Mr. Stockman stated, my trailer’s just sitting out there, yeah.
36 signatures of my neighbors in Glenwood Hills and some of the residents on 250 opposing the tower.
to warn their students, based on what happened out at Virginia Tech, whether something bad is happening on campus. And, of course, there is still many recreational uses for downloading video and Blackberries, and all sorts of other things, too, which, although are not essential, they are causing this need for more towers, because there is so much more use of cell phones. Demand is driving the proliferation as it is of towers. I can only speak with respect to this particular site, but Horvath has not investigated what was referred to as visually non-polluting towers, with respect to this particular location, because it meets the requirements of the ordinance as it is of a monopole-designed tower. Frankly, the only type that would probably even work in that area would be designed to look like a tree, and a 200-foot tree sticking out there isn’t going to be all that unobtrusive, either, as compared to a cell phone tower. As far as I know, in my experience dealing with cell phone sites, there is no data or definitive study that shows that cell phone tower sites affect property values negatively in the United States. Who cares if Cricket has a gap in their coverage, someone said. Well, if I have a Cricket cell phone and I’m trying to make a 911 call, I care, and certainly Cricket is entitled under federal law, and, in fact, required, to provide coverage to this entire area, not have major gaps in their coverage, so, it is a bigger deal than, who cares. Again, why can’t Cricket have better equipment? Their equipment is standard in the industry and this isn’t a case of who has good equipment or who doesn’t; this is just a case of there is a hole in the coverage because there are no towers in that particular area. I think the RF coverage map shows that two miles to the South and two miles to the North, where there are either existing towers or commercial areas, Cricket’s already on the sites that exist there. If there are no sites, the commercial area is located too far away from where Cricket’s signal would effectively fill this area. If there were a commercial area within their gap, we would obviously have looked there and tried to site the tower there, however, one does not exist, a commercial area within this area that needs to be filled. I won’t address the health issues with regard to RF radiation. As Mr. McClure may know, or may have advised you, the Board is not, under federal law, supposed to consider that information as part of your decision, because the FCC has determined that the RF radiation that’s emitted from one of these towers is well within the guidelines imposed by the federal government and the FCC. But, just for your edification, one panel on a cell phone tower antenna emits about as much RF radiation as a 40-watt lightbulb, so your microwave is more dangerous than RF radiation from an antenna. In order to get exposed to the type of radiation that people are concerned about, you have to be at the height of the antenna, right next to the antenna for an extended period of time, so it’s more dangerous to have the cell phone up to your head than it is to live near a tower. With respect to lighting of the tower, Horvath has already received – and I know we’re not supposed to submit additional evidence, but I will submit this as a form of rebuttal evidence, a determination of no hazard to air navigation by the FAA, and, in it, the FAA says: Basically, “this evaluation marking and lighting the tower is not necessary for
This is really confusing trying to show them what’s going to be in their back yard, and I’m really disappointed in that.
Mr. Detert stated, well, I’m a little concerned that the public isn’t adequately informed with the stuff we have and the displays we have.
located, then, if the answer to that question is yes, then that’s one piece of this puzzle.
Mr. Detert moved to continue this Case to the 2-20-08 BZA meeting for more information, better displays and better answers for the people, and keep the public hearing open. Mr. Brickner seconded the motion. Case 07-EDD-1. Petition of Lamar Advertising, c/o Todd A. Leeth, Hoeppner Wagner & Evans, 103 E. Lincolnway, seeking an appeal of the Executive Director’s decision to deny a building permit for an electronic outdoor advertising sign, saying said sign does not meet the requirements of the Porter County Zoning Ordinance, to be located at 368 W. Joliet Road, in Union Township. (This Case was continued from the 9-19-07, 11-28-07 and 12-19-07 BZA meetings with the public hearing closed.) Attorney Todd Leeth stated that he is representing and accompanied by one of the petitioners in this matter, Shawn Pettit. We have, as the Chairman indicated, been before you now a few times. For the benefit of, perhaps, the new members, what I thought I would do is just very briefly indicate what we were trying to accomplish. And that is, and perhaps just to remind everyone, as well. What Lamar is trying to do is take an existing sign – a traditional outdoor advertising sign, what’s commonly referred to as a billboard – that’s located on the North side of U.S. Hwy 30 at Joliet Road. There’s that existing sign there that is a 10 by 36, or 360 square feet, convert the West face for Eastbound traffic, convert that face of the sign to an LED or electronic display sign. The height of the sign would be the same. The shape, the location, the setback – all of that would be exactly the same. What we are trying to do is create what is today a paper message and convert it to an electronic message. That’s essentially what we are trying to do, but the only thing that changes is the medium in which the message is displayed. We believe that we
are entitled to do that, under your ordinance. Mr. Thompson has disagreed, and that’s why we’re here. In the last three or four months, as we’ve appeared before you, what we’re trying to do is reach an accord with the Board to address some of the concerns that were raised by the public at the public hearing back in September, and that has to do with brightness. That has to do with some safety issues. We have provided to the Board a zoning commitment letter that addresses what we believe are the issues that are raised in national studies. There’s been a lot of discussion – as the Board well knows – over the past few months, as we’ve gone through this, of some studies that address the safety issues, and it is my opinion after viewing what I think are the two lead studies, one conducted by the Federal Highway Administration, the other by the Virginia Tech Institute, that the bottom line of those studies is that there is no conclusive evidence that there’s any safety issues, with regard to the traveling public, or otherwise. The Board has those studies, and I don’t want to characterize them differently, but that’s my interpretation. However, what we can learn from those studies is that there’s certain things that are important with regard to safety. We can’t have animation. We can’t have flashing. And these signs are capable of doing that, but our commitment letter to you says that that’s not what we’re going to do, that the messages that are going to be displayed on this sign are going to be static, just as though it were printed on paper, a paper medium, what you have there today. The signs are going to change. They’re going to change frequently, every 10 seconds, but the change is going to be from one message to the next message. There’s not going to be any animation or shuffling, as we see in PowerPoint computer presentations, or anything along those lines. Again, what we have is a static message that changes, and, in my opinion, that is not flashing, that is certainly not animation, and it is certainly not video. And those are the things that the study says are important. The other things that the study talks about is brightness and intensity and color usage. All of those things, we think, are addressed in the commitment letter to try and give the Board the comfort level that we are addressing the safety issues that these studies have itemized or identified for us as the issues that are important in the traffic safety. But, in and off itself, the simple fact that the message is electronically created, rather than printed on paper, in our opinion has no legal significance under your ordinance. Mr. Chairman, very briefly, best as I can, that’s kind of where we’re at today. Mr. Pettit and I will be happy to answer any questions you might have. Ms. Kerr-Cook stated, I just have one question right now. I know I’ve seen two different kinds of the sign like what you are talking about. Some are where it’s like sections that flip. Is that what this is? But then I just saw one the other day where it is one where the whole thing just changed every 10 seconds. Mr. Pettit stated that in the industry there is the tri-wave technology, which Lamar has, the competition has here in Porter County. The intersection at the Toll Road and SR 49 – is that still
Mr. McClure stated that I believe that’s been annexed into Chesterton. Mr. Pettit stated that there are tri-waves there… Ms. Kerr-Cook asked, and that’s the one where it just turns? Mr. Pettit stated, where it turns. They rotate every 15 seconds. Those are three panels on a blade on a track, with an electronic motor. The digitals that we’re deploring (sic) right now, we have one in Merrillville. The BZA approved two more last night for Merrillville. Schererville has got…we just found our third one in Schererville, in a variety of sizes, and the size that’s going here at Highway 30 and Joliet is comparable to a sign we have at Von Toble Lumber, on the South side of U.S. 30, just West of Cline Avenue. We put it on the bike path with the Town of Schererville. As Mr. Leeth alluded to, it is electronic. It changes every 10 seconds. Due to the technology, it does not fade in and out. It is immediate change from one copy to the next, but that copy does not move one bit. Just for the new members’ benefits, Lamar’s corporate policy is no adult entertainment advertising nationwide by Lamar Advertising, so you know the quality of the copy, the clients who are going to be on there, are ethical and upstanding. They’re your local businesses here in Porter County and Lake County. The dimming is done by an electronic camera that hangs on there, and we monitor what goes on there so the copy changes. We can see it on the computer. The advertiser can change it. For example, the board in Merrillville, Bosak Motors, his copy is never the same in an hour, because each model of car has the price. Every 10 seconds a new model pops…you know, when it’s his turn to pop up you can do that with the technology of the computer. We’ve also offered the County – as we do all of our communities – that if there is, God forbid, an Amber alert, we will add a seventh panel with that information until the Amber alert is dismissed, or if there is another tragedy. If there is, you know, a water main break or something, or a disaster here, weather warnings, we would add that seventh panel to alert the motorists driving by what’s going on, so we’re committed to doing that, as well. And I should…just for the benefit…Todd, I don’t know if you…this is under the old ordinance. Currently you do not allow outdoor advertising structures in Porter County at all under the new Unified Development Ordinance. So, as much as I like seeing you guys, you’re probably never going to see Lamar again. Depending on the decision, this is a one-time shot. If we don’t get a sign here, because of the way I filed the building permit with Mr. Thompson and the deadline was, I think, June 15th, no one else can come in here with a digital under your new ordinance. I’m kind of the last of the Mohicans, so to speak. That’s where we feel that you guys have got some control there. Because it’s only going to be one digital in Porter County. If you’re going to approve a digital, it’s going to be this one, or it’s going to be none, I think, in a planner’s opinion. So, that’s kind of where we stand. We would ask for your approval.
Mr. McClure stated, I just want to make sure that everyone…the zoning commitment letter went out in the original packet, but I just want to kind of gloss over some of the restrictive terms within it, for all the Board members’ information. This commitment would have the sign remain the same, as you just mentioned – 10.5 x 36 – and that would remain the same with this. That would be a commitment to leave it at that size. Also, it would be a series of static messages using LED technology. This acknowledges that this would not permit full-motion video or any animation. Also, there would be no animated flashing or full-motion video elements. The message that is in motion, or appears to be in motion: “The sign shall not contain a message that is in motion or appears to be in motion, or that changes in intensity or exposes its message for less than 4 seconds, or that has an interval between messages of two minutes or less, may not exceed the following brightness limits measured as candelas per square feet at any focal point on any roadway or berm or any vehicular approach to any roadway”. We have the day and night setting, and we have several colors mentioned. We have red. It would be, day would be 300 and night 100; green, 600 during the day and at night 200; amber would be, during the day 450. At night, 150. Blue during the day would be 800, and, at night 350. All other colors would be day, maximum of 650 and at night, 250, and that would be, once again, at any focal point on any roadway or berm or vehicular approach. The sign will be equipped with a mechanism to control brightness through the means of an automatic dimming device or scheduled dimming program. Lamar further agrees to restore the electronic digital display back to its original condition as a 10.5 by 36 poster unit if the structure is ever sold to an independent third-party purchaser. If Lamar should sell this location, upon the execution of the closing documents, thereby transferring ownership, the purchaser shall provide Porter County within 30 days of closing a written consent which shall not be unreasonably withheld, requesting approval to retain the electronic digital display. “If Porter County provides written proof of their desire to restore this location to its original condition, Lamar shall have a maximum of one year to file all necessary applications requesting approval of a Use Variance”. Mr. Brickner stated that I might also remind the Board that this is an appeal of the Executive Director’s decision to deny this, the Petitioner’s request. That’s one of the things we have to decide on here, is to either uphold his decision or not. So, with that, I’ll open it up to the Board. Mr. Detert stated, I’d like Mr. Leeth to explain his comment – and I don’t remember exactly how you phrased that – but that there is no conclusive evidence that there is no danger from a sign like this.
Mr. Detert stated, from what I have read… Mr. Leeth stated, I think it’s important because we have gone through the literature with you before, and I don’t want to gloss over your question. I’m looking at the Virginia Tech study, and, as you can see, we’re talking about ¾ of an inch of paper, on Page 73 of the Virginia Tech study it says: “These particular LED billboards were considered safety neutral in their design and operation from a human factor’s perspective. They changed only once every 8 seconds in this study, they changed instantaneously with no special effects or video. They look very much like conventional billboards and their illuminance was attenuated by night”. Again, that’s what we’re talking about, attenuated. We’re reducing the power, the light-emitting diodes are held back, if you will, safety-neutral. That was the Virginia Tech study. The federal Highway Administration study, Section 2.3 on Page 8, which is titled “Reports on Billboards and Safety”, the last sentence says: “The results are mixed and inconclusive, as shown above. Again, that’s how I come to you and tell you that, in my review of these studies, the results are simply inconclusive, safety-neutral. Mr. Detert stated, I understand that, but, you know, a mixed review does not necessarily mean that it isn’t there, that it’s not evident. You know, one thing struck me in one of these reports, where somebody said, what driver is going to admit that he caused an accident because he was looking at a billboard? And I understand that, you know. Nobody’s going to admit causing an accident. Mr. Leeth stated that I don’t want to put too much credence in the studies, but this study, the Virginia Tech study, I don’t know if you went through it, but there are photographs in here of the methodology that they did in sending folks on a predescribed course, driving through Cleveland, Ohio, and the interstate system there, past all sorts of traffic types and issues: billboards, intersections, interstate interchanges, all sorts of those things, and they had three or four cameras, as I recall, in the car, monitoring their eye movements, the drivers’ eye movements, and then they had a study of those drivers when they returned back to the study session, so it’s not as though somebody is just saying, you know, well, my vision was never impaired, or I saw the billboard and had an accident because of it. These are scientific studies. Mr. Detert stated, and I’m not just picking on billboards, but I think any time a driver looks at something, he could cause an
Mr. Leeth stated, but the funny thing is, when Mr. Pettit and I were talking, we’re kind of talking about the paper and how often they change it and the fact that when they change paper they hang the ladder from the billboard and the guy’s got his pickup truck there. I don’t know about you, but every time I see that, I’m watching that. I think that’s interesting because I’m scared to death of heights, and I can’t figure out how he gets up there day in and day out. So I think that, perhaps, is more dangerous as a static message changing, as you drive by. Mr. Detert stated, I guess my point is that your conclusion that there are no safety hazards, I think that’s wrong. I think there’s a safety hazard any time a driver looks at something off the road. Mr. Leeth stated, and I don’t disagree with that statement. My statement, however, that I stand by, is that these reports cannot tie, make a causal connection, between an electronic billboard and traffic safety. There is no causal connection, and these studies conclude that. That’s my interpretation of these studies. Mr. Pettit stated, Mr. Detert, you raise a good point in the distraction, however, the first question from the new commissioner was is this like a tri-wave, and those turn every 15 seconds, so if the copy, no matter what the mechanism of change is, in a short period of time, that’s still…you would consider that a distraction. So, tri-waves, or LED’s, in that vernacular, are distractions to traffic. I guess I’m trying to get your opinion. You know what I’m saying? But this Board, this County, has allowed and granted building permits for tri-waves, so, and the definition of the poster panel, we’ve all been discussing over the last four months is somewhat vague. So, to sit and say, well, three panels on a tri-wave to move every 15 seconds, is okay, but electronically, every 10 seconds is not okay, that’s what I guess we at Lamar are struggling with, how is that philosophy, or is that the philosophy of the Board? Mr. Detert stated, I guess my problem is not to pick on billboards, per se, but to come here and tell us that there is no safety involvement here I think is totally wrong. I have a whole bunch of reading materials that…I can present this one in front of me from Minnesota…that their conclusions are that they are a safety hazard. And why then does the federal government now have, in study form, without a final report, on the very thing you’re talking about, and that report is due in 2009, so there must be some feeling that there is some hazard involved. Or they wouldn’t be making a study. Mr. Leeth stated, I don’t think there’s any question that there’s a perception that there’s a hazard. That’s why these studies were conducted, and that’s why we have quite a voluminous amount of material here. Let me address the Minnesota studies. There’s quite a bit of literature – newspaper articles; there’s a study from the city
Mr. Detert stated, a consulting firm. Mr. Leeth stated, a consulting firm. That study was commissioned, it is my understanding, by the city of Minnetonka because they were in litigation with a national sign company and there was, I think, some bias in that study. I don’t think you can say that about the Virginia Tech study and certainly can’t say that about the federal Highway Administration study. Mr. Detert stated, well, in that very study we’re talking about, there are various universities that did make studies, and they are quoted in here, so there have been studies from people that I figure would not be prejudiced one way or the other, and that goes for a consulting firm, also. Mr. Leeth asked, and, do they conclusively state that there is a causal relationship between traffic safety and LED billboards? Mr. Detert asked, do they say that LED billboards are never a distraction? No, they don’t say that. Mr. Leeth stated, absolutely not. Mr. Detert stated, you’re using one side of it to prove your point. I’m using the other side to say that they don’t say, and the gut feeling of them all is that there is a distraction. Mr. Pettit stated, but you (inaudible) to on-premise signs, as well, and, again, I go back to maybe not the Board, but the Porter County Building Department, allowing, giving building permits to off-premise signs that have scrolling messages that would be just as distractive as our sign. Mr. Detert stated that the case before us is this one. Mr. Pettit stated, but you’re bringing traffic and distractions into this, as a basis for judging whether or not to grant this permit. Mr. Detert stated, I haven’t said that yet. All I’ve said is that I guess I don’t like somebody telling me there is not a hazard that even the courts have used common logic in some of their cases, from what I understand in here, to determine that there is some kind of a minor hazard. It may be no greater than some other hazard, but there is a hazard there. Mr. Leeth stated, let’s step back and admit that a billboard does, whether it’s electronic, a tri-wave or a paper panel... Mr. Detert stated, now you’re making my point. Mr. Pettit stated, well, that’s what we’re in the business to do, is to make all of you folks look at that 10.5 by 36. Mr. Detert stated, exactly. Mr. Pettit stated, otherwise, Strack & Van Til’s is not going to pay… Mr. Detert stated, exactly, and I was a little concerned that somebody’s telling me that there is… Mr. Pettit stated, everyone’s going to look… Mr. Detert stated, and that bothers me. Mr. Leeth stated, what I want to make clear, however, is these studies focus on the LED technology, and I misunderstood your question. Billboards, by their very nature, divert the eyes of a driving public. Whether or not that’s paper, electric, tri-waves or LED. I don’t think we can argue that point. I’m not saying that that’s the case. Mr. Detert stated, I just want you to understand that I’m not going to buy your point that there is no hazard for billboards. There is a hazard. Mr. Leeth stated, but what you have to understand from my point of view, representing Lamar Advertising, as they stand here today, we are asking you to allow us, and we believe we’re entitled to do so, we’re asking your permission with the commitments and so forth to allow us to change the medium in which that message is displayed. Mr. Detert stated, I understand that. Now the question is, are they more hazardous than a static billboard? Mr. Leeth stated, and the answer to that, we believe, is the studies don’t say that they are. It’s safety neutral. That’s the evidence that you have today that we provided to you, and we know that you’ve done your own research and the Minnetonka study is different. We understand that. But I think that the credible evidence before you is that they are safety-neutral, as the one study says. Mr. Detert stated, you know, I’m not going to argue that point. There is evidence in here that there have been studies that say that electronic billboards are more hazardous. Mr. Leeth stated, and let’s be clear: Billboards are only but one distraction from the traveling public. Mr. Detert stated, I understand that. Our question is, do we want to put forth another one that may divert a driver’s attention from what he’s supposed to be doing? Mr. Leeth stated, and our point is, the point I’d like to make is, we’re not adding another one. We’re changing the format in which it’s displayed. Mr. Detert stated, so the question now is, static versus dynamic. Dynamic is going to be some hazard, because a billboard is some hazard, but now is dynamic or a lighted billboard more hazardous? Does that add to the hazard? And that’s the question before us. Mr. Leeth stated, that’s correct, and if, by what you mean, and these signs, in some instances are referred to as dynamic. I want to make sure that dynamic doesn’t mean video or animation; we’re not doing that. Our position, however, is that the sign, today, in its paper format is also lighted. Mr. Pettit stated, then, again, the question is…you talked about dynamic. How far do you take the definition of dynamic? Three panels on a tri-wave, again, they move, by a different mechanism than the six electronic, so three versus six: How do you define dynamic? Again, we could, if it weren’t for the Indiana administrative with INDOT, the technology allows you to have 24 of these. I mean they could change much more rapidly by technology, but the state of Indiana only allows us to go 10 seconds, and we, as a company, have adopted that, because the advertisers want to be viewed, and we’re only doing six in a minute, but you could be spinning that thing, with the memory in the unit, it could load 24 different in a minute, which – my math isn’t very good – is about 2.5 seconds, but… Mr. Detert stated, I just wanted to make my point that I made. I think you admit there is some hazard in billboards. Mr. Pettit stated, I agree with you, Mr. Detert. If there weren’t… Mr. Detert stated, you wouldn’t be here. Mr. Pettit stated, Lamar has been around since 1902. If they weren’t attracting attention…you’re right. Mr. Detert stated, and the reason you want electronic billboard, I understand. There’s economies there. You can turn that billboard into another billboard almost immediately, if you want to. And I understand that. That’s why you want it. The other reason is, you can make a lot more money by putting more advertisers in 24 hours than you could on a static. Mr. Leeth stated, and that’s true, but let’s also make the other point. If I’m a small business in Valparaiso or in Merrillville or whatever and I want to advertise on this electronic billboard, I can’t afford, today, to pay for a month paper rental of that billboard, but maybe I can buy, you know, two 10-second panels.
Mr. Detert asked, is that what you’re going to do? Are you going to sell it in 10-second panels? Are you going to sell your advertisement with electronic billboard on a basis of one flash or 10 times today or not anymore? I don’t know how you’re going to run the business. Mr. Leeth stated, well, the message changes every 10 seconds. And, so, the answer is yes. Mr. Detert asked, are you going to tell me that, as a small businessman, I can have one 10-second flash? Mr. Leeth stated, but that repeats. Mr. Detert asked, are you telling me that I don’t repeat it for a day? You know, your point is that a paper billboard can’t be changed for what, three months? Mr. Pettit stated, it depends on the contract. Mr. Detert stated, and that’s why you have to price it higher than an electronic billboard, so I’m just simply asking, how are you going to operate an electronic billboard? Are you going to pass some economy down to the advertiser? Mr. Leeth stated, of course. At some point in time, Lamar is not here telling you that the cost at the end of the month of the revenue is going to be the same with the LED versus a paper panel; we’re not suggesting that. But what I’m suggesting to you is, if I had a small business in Valparaiso – yes, I do – I could advertise on that paper panel, but the cost of that is far, far more, and I could get that same advertising on Highway 30 in a 10- or 20- or 30-second spot and it’s more economical for me. Mr. Detert stated, I assume that’s what you were inferring. I just wanted you to say that. Mr. Pettit stated, but, again, back to the Bosak (inaudible, someone coughing), you could load different artwork where you’d have to buy, as Todd said, you’d have to buy all that paper, have it stored at our place in Gary and then tell us which days you want that put up, whereas, you know, at 10:01:10 Bosak is running a 2009…I don’t even know what models they have over there…a Sebring for $13,000, and the next panel that comes up, it’s a different model and so on down the road. It’s got that flexibility. That’s what these folks like. Now, to answer your question, Mr. Detert, this will probably be sold, if we were successful with this sign, and Strack & Van Til’s wants to buy a rotary, they’re probably going to be on both this board and the board in Schererville, because they are the same size and they are going in different directions. They are coming into the Valparaiso market, they’re going to target that, and they are going to be on that Schererville board. Now they’re going to get a certain price if they bought both boards, or wanted to be on both boards. If they only
Mr. Williams asked, is your sign the one on Taft? Mr. Pettit stated, yes, it is. Mr. Williams asked, and, are you insinuating here that…what is the minimum purchase of this board, the electronic…what would be your minimum type contract? Mr. Pettit stated, that…I mean…it depends on… Mr. McClure stated, I think the real question they’re asking is, I think what you have been inferring, what Todd was inferring, was if you’re a small business and you wanted to buy a 10-second slot, I think you’re inferring that 10-second slot would be once a minute, every so, every 50 seconds, what they’re asking…is that for a day, for a week? Mr. Pettit stated, probably the minimum contract, Scott, or, to the member, would be…is probably a 30-day. You might be able to get a 30-day contract, but, more than likely, the larger…I mean, the people were asking for these. The account executives cannot sell these things fast enough. People were asking, where’s your next board going? And that’s part of my job along with, you’ve met Jim Perry before, we go into different communities trying to get these things up because they are so popular. We do go down to as low as a 30-day contract. Some people have bought 12-month contracts. Others do what they call a perm, and they are guaranteed on that board for 5 years, and we just continually replace the vinyl when the weather has beaten it or faded it so you can put out as long as or short as a 30-day contract, I would say. Mr. Williams stated, I’m not talking about on the board. I’m talking about on your electronic sign that you’re proposing. Mr. Pettit stated, it could be the same. It could be as short as a 30-day contract, if they wanted to do that. Mr. Williams asked, and you would be…it would be every minute, your sign would be, your message would be on there. Is that correct? Mr. Pettit stated, it would be every 10 seconds. Mr. Leeth stated, 10 seconds of every minute. Mr. Pettit stated, yeah, you’re right, once a minute, yeah. So you’d be seen however many minutes there are in a day.
Mr. Leeth stated, without a doubt, but it’s still, I would think, much more economical than trying to get a paper panel that’s going to have a three-month contract, or even if it were a 30-day, I still think it would be significantly more than one-sixth of an electronic. Mr. Pettit asked, and what is a small business? I mean, I’ll throw one out for now that I know that grabbed up the board at Boston Pizza in Schererville, Tiger Plumbing. I don’t know what their revenue is. I don’t know what their budget is. I don’t know how many employees they have, but a plumbing contractor took up the two panels immediately once we got the building permit in Schererville, knew it was up and it was on the street. That board sold out in 14 hours. It was released at noon on a Friday. By 8:00 the next Monday, all six contracts were signed, sealed and delivered. The advertisers are jumping on these. I don’t know if you ladies and gentlemen consider Albert’s Jeweler’s a small business or not. He’s very popular. He’s on that board. The newspapers have taken it – Northwestindianatimes.com – you know, which, in a way, a different medium, is a competitor of ours, but they’re on that board. They bought a slot on that board at Taft Street. So, I’m stepping a little bit out into the sales area that I’m not real familiar with to try and answer some of your questions, but it’s a very popular product, and we’re very excited about it, otherwise we wouldn’t be going into the communities, and we have had a couple communities that are satisfied with them, and have granted additional locations to be installed. Schererville, we have cleaned up some things. We have taken down some wood structures, smaller signs, in exchange for consideration to put these units up. I don’t know if that’s something this Board would entertain or not as a part of the approval. I can take that back to the general manager if there are some wood-built structures that you find aesthetically offensive, we could look at some of our inventory, possibly take one, two or three of those down. I don’t know if that’s something to consider or not, but that’s kind of something new. Mr. Brickner’s kind of wide-eyed there, but we have done…it’s kind of a community project we have done in other communities in Northwest Indiana, so, at the end of the day, it’s my job to get the sign up, so, we’re willing to work with the community as best we can, such as the Amber alert, things of that nature. Mr. Detert stated, that brings up another question. How often and who’s going to have control of that? If somebody calls up and says I want an Amber alert, how fast can you get that up? Mr. Pettit stated, 15 seconds, from the time… Mr. Detert asked, how much of your time would be devoted…say we have a catastrophe of some sort and we need to have the message a lot…
Mr. Detert asked, is that free? Mr. Pettit stated, yes, absolutely. Mr. McClure stated, just to be clear. All the panels go to 8 seconds, so the Amber alert would be, what, every 48 seconds? Mr. Pettit stated, I don’t know – something like that, yeah. Seven panels into 60 is, what, 8 point something seconds. Mr. Detert stated, I don’t mean to be antagonistic, but you’re inferring there are some benefits to the community and I’m trying to draw those out: What are those benefits? Can the community call up, can the sheriff call you up at any time of the night or day and say we need this? Is somebody on duty that can change that? Mr. Pettit stated, we would get with them, yes. Our marketing manager, she will get with the…we pulled that off the website before I came in…ummm, of your EMA. Is it still Phil Griffith? Do we work with your EMA or do you prefer the sheriff? That’s something I guess we could get the details of, or who the contacts are. What they would give them, Mr. Detert, is they will give them an email address to the knock center. Type in the email address and then you type in your password and…my understanding, because they wanted to do this with us in Merrillville, my understanding is the Amber alerts are not issued by local jurisdiction, that they come from the state police. Mr. Detert stated, right. Mr. Pettit stated, I don’t know if you know about that or not. Mr. McClure stated, I believe they come from the state police. Mr. Pettit stated, because our officer in charge of the dispatch says, well, that’s all fine, well and good, you guys want to give us this, but I’m still going to have to contact the state police, so…we could work on the logistic details, but they would go in, type in, and, then if the Amber alert is called off, then they obviously type it in that it’s been removed and the panels go back to once every 10 seconds. Weather warnings. I don’t know how we would handle weather
Mr. Detert stated that we may have a half a dozen people that you are going to have to recognize that they want something on the billboard. Mr. Pettit stated, right. Mr. Detert stated, we may have more than that; I don’t know. Mr. Pettit stated, so all the Board members are clear, it’s an emergency situation only. It would not be to promote, you know, any type of festival or something at the Expo Center in addition. This would be for emergency purposes only. We try to categorize them as, again, Amber alerts; weather-related disasters. If there is some type of infrastructure, if there is a flooding, where a road is knocked out, the EMA could get in there and say, please avoid, you know, CR 200 N., excess flooding – we could do something like that for a short period of time, but it would not be where there would be an extra panel dedicated for County use for, you know, I don’t know what. Mr. Detert stated, that was going to be my next question. You’re not going to open it up to announcements that the County might want to make, that the County might feel are important to the populace? It’s not open to them? Mr. Pettit stated, it’s not…well, I don’t mean to sound like Monty Hall, Mr. Detert, but I could…I probably have the authority to make a deal. I’d have to go back to Jim – and this is a good question for Todd and Scott. Our building permit is for the West face only. If this Board were so inclined to grant both faces, that means I now have 12 panels. The corporate office in Baton Rouge has been releasing one panel dedicated to that jurisdiction if they get both sides. Again, I’d have to go back and get that cleared by the general manager, if that’s something you folks are interested in, where you do get a benefit and you guys can promote it. Lamar still has 11 slots to sell and Porter County has one dedicated slot, but that would probably mean rebuilding that structure from the ground up. Mr. Detert stated, I’m not asking for anything. I’m just trying to understand what… Mr. Pettit stated, right. That’s what we have been doing in the past. That has been the precedent by Lamar, is that if it’s a back to back digital, we would be able to dedicate a panel to a community or jurisdiction that we are located in. That’s what they have been doing in the past. Mr. Detert stated, you just opened up another question when you said you might have to construct it from the ground up. If I
Mr. Pettit stated, no. They’ll take the face of the one vinyl – I think McDonald’s is on that copy now, take that off, and there would be some supports that they would from the header that they would have to bring up so the attachments would match up to the new design of the LED… Mr. Detert stated, there’d still be an outline of the billboard left in place and you just insert in that what you need. Mr. Pettit stated, right, right. Mr. Burns stated, we have some more concerns. We talk about safety earlier. This location on U.S. 30 has been a very dangerous area, from 250 W. to 475 W. During the time I’ve been in Valpo, all three stop signs were installed because of accidents and car crashes there. Reading these reports, several things stand out, is, intersections; curves and high speed; highways and grades. And guess what? This part of the highway has all those hazards or risks, whatever you want to call it. I mean it. It’s the worst place for an electronic sign, according to some of these reports. That’s a concern. The concern I have is, we talk about drivers’ distraction. Will this sign distract the drivers more than the stationary panel. Yes, they’re going to read the stationary panel. Your residents that drive every day, is familiar with that sign, they probably don’t even read that McDonald’s sign. Your new drivers coming through there or somebody taking a different route is going to be reading all the flashing signs, even the residents, and that concerns me, taking your eyes off the road, with the curve, the grade, the high speed. Another issue is the stoplight in front of Shorewood on U.S. 30. Your sign and the stoplight is in a vertical parallel with each other. Now the lights are higher than the sign. As you come over the grade, the stoplights are above the sign. What I’m concerned about, once you turn it into an LED sign, is that going to, is the driver going to see that sign and not the stoplight? I mean, that’s a concern. I don’t know the answer for sure, but I think it would be a risk, and we need to address that. Either colors or limit the panel changes. Mr. Leeth stated, I guess I have two comments. Today, if there’s a McDonald’s sign out there today, McDonald’s has two predominant colors in their corporate logo – yellow and red – two of the colors in a traffic light, and I don’t think that’s an issue today. And recognize that that’s a paper billboard today. So I don’t think that that’s an issue today or we would recognize that as community members. Second of all, that’s why we have the attenuation of the LED at night, to dial back the intensity so it doesn’t have that effect. Mr. Burns stated, but the LED sign is more visible than your traditional sign, and that’s the whole purpose of it, to get that attention.
Mr. Burns stated, I was there today, and you’re right. There’s no grade, and there’s also…speed is reduced. Mr. Pettit stated, yeah, ‘cause you’re at that light…well, at Shorewood you could be coming up, depending on cycle, to a stop. Then you’re sitting there and you’re looking at our board and you’re gearing up as you hit the green cycle, so… Mr. Burns stated, my concern is, as you’re coming, if you get the green light before 475 W., you’re heading East into Valpo, and that sign flashes whatever display you have, is the driver going to pick up that sign or pick up that stoplight? He may blow right through that stoplight if he’s looking at that sign, because of the colors. Don’t forget. You’re going to have different colors on that sign. You have different panels changing. Mr. Pettit stated, it goes back to what Mr. Detert’s comment was, you know: Who’s going to say that they were looking at a billboard, given the height of that sign versus the height of the strain poles for the signal. Each individual driver may be different as to what their vision clearance is at that horizon level. Mr. Burns stated, one thing, in these reports that came out is, a lot of the studies, even your studies, are pointing out a driver looks at an unfamiliar sign more often than a standard sign that doesn’t change, do you agree with that? So, like that McDonald’s sign that doesn’t change, they’re going to get less looks, I guess, than a sign that changes six to eight times an hour. That’s a fair statement. That’s where the curve comes into effect and the speed and the grade, and now the stoplight, and that’s a real concern. Maybe you can work around that where you can reduce the risk, but that is a real concern. I did have the highway engineer look at it today, and he also agrees with that. Mr. Brickner stated, I noticed the same thing. When you come over that…come up to that stoplight, as you’re looking at the stoplight, you’re looking almost in line with your sign, and I can’t imagine having a flashing, digital sign there, it would be awfully distracting, and, in all honesty, you would have to look at it. You could hardly avoid it. Well, you couldn’t avoid it, and all of these reports seem to have one common thread, and that is that digital signs distract drivers more than conventional signs. I mean, if you read all through these reports, and the conclusion of the Virginia report says the same thing, that drivers are distracted more by digital signs than by conventional signs, and that’s the purpose of building them. So, this particular location is what bothers me. The speed of the traffic, the location, the curve, the intersection at Joliet Road is an unprotected intersection. If you were there today, it was extremely busy. Traffic in all directions. And it was very high speed traffic. It isn’t slow traffic. It isn’t like the intersection in Schererville where you’re slowing down, so I think it’s a dangerous…I think it does cause a danger in this particular area. One of these reports stated, you can shut off your radio. You can turn off your GPS. You can not answer your cell phone. You don’t have to eat. You got all these choices, distractions, while you’re driving, but the one choice you don’t have are billboards. You have to look at them, and you don’t really have a choice to say, I’m not going to look at that billboard, you know, as I go by. This flashing billboard is a distraction that you can’t shut off, and I think that’s the difference between all these other distractions and the billboards, is that you don’t have any control. You’re at the mercy of a billboard, and your Virginia report concludes that it’s the changing of the signs that causes the distraction more than anything – the timing and the changing. As the driver sees the sign change, he has to look at the next sign, and so your attention is distracted more, but the area, I agree that it’s just a really dangerous area to have a sign like this, in my opinion, a flashing sign. What other signs does Lamar own on 30? Do they have any other signs? Mr. Pettit stated, oh, yeah. There’s one on the South side at the turn for Lake Eliza, at that gas station, property owner there. We have one there. Trying to think, into 30. We start getting into Valpo proper with a couple of them. There’s a couple others up near the next intersecting light on the North side. We’ve got some up in the curve, some smaller size boards, going East into Valpo, they’d be on the North side of 30. Those are close to what we call poster panels – 10 by 22. I don’t know if that’s something that, again, this Board would allow…I don’t know how we’d handle it, because we permitted for that sign, and I don’t know if that’s something that this Board would permit us, you know, one location under the old ordinance to convert to an LED other than this one. I can take that back to the general manager and the sales manager and say, here’s where the BZA’s going. Mr. Brickner asked, one other than this one? Mr. Pettit stated, other than this one. I don’t know. You’re talking about the location we have…
Mr. Pettit stated, no. Instead of this one. Something else, granting us a building permit to put an LED on another location other than this one if you feel the location is bad. Obviously, you ladies and gentlemen can rule how you feel. I guess our position at Lamar is if the Board and the Executive Director has granted a building permit for a tri-wave – your three panel versus six panels, your 10 seconds versus 15 seconds – then you still have the distraction, so maybe more of your argument goes to the location, the elevation, the location of the signal, you know, we could re-evaluate that if you could so give us that discretion and come back to either Bob or to the Board. I could take back to the general manager if that’s what we’re talking about, but I don’t know if that’s in the realm of this Petition or not. That’s…I’m kind of thinking outside the box now. Mr. Detert stated, let me tell you. My roots are in Merrillville and I still go back there, although I’ve lived in Porter County longer than I lived in Merrillville. I find that looking at the tri-fold (sic) signs are not as distracting as looking at an LED sign. Mr. Burns stated, I have to agree with Bob. Mr. Pettit stated, once again, that gets into…and you folks are appointed to make these decisions, but that is two opinions, whereas, we may get a handful of people if we polled them and they say, no, I like the LED’s; I don’t like the tri-waves. Tri-waves, for us, are also a maintenance problem because that’s a chain-driven situation. The motor can go bad. I told Todd earlier, we shut down one at Blue Chip Casino in Michigan City because the winds off the lake blow those blades so bad that it’s mixing up the copy. The advertisers are getting mad. Mr. Burns stated, but I think where Mr. Detert is coming from, and I agree with him, the transition is a smooth transition. You don’t have that quick burst or flash of a new sign, so it doesn’t distract the drivers as much. Mr. Pettit stated, it’s the technology. It turns and then it flops down. You actually hear it snap. Mr. McClure asked, could you mimic that in your change? Mr. Pettit asked, the fading? I don’t know that the technology allows the fading. Mr. Leeth stated, like the PowerPoints. You can have the PowerPoint presentations do exactly what a tri-wave looks like. You can have all sorts of different transitions.
Mr. Pettit stated, we buy two different units. We either buy (call Lamar on this)Daktronics or Yesco, and I don’t think they manufacture them in that fashion. They come from the manufacturer and we hang them. As I explained to Mr. Detert, we put the additional steel that we need up and we brace it. They hang them, they basically wire the plug and it’s already set. You’re talking about rewiring the circuitry of those things that are already…I don’t know if that’s feasible. Mr. McClure stated, you can change how the picture changes, correct? When you go from panel to panel, if you load this thing up with the six or whatever it is, how they go from one to the other, you have some control, correct? Mr. Pettit stated, no, we do not. That’s the internal circuits of how they’re brought in. What the marketing manager will do, when they get the artwork they download it through a computer and it pops it in. I can double-check, but everything we’ve been told is its instantaneous changing, there’s no scrolling. There’s no exploding in this, which is one of the features we’ve been selling to the communities. A lot of people feel that’s more of a distraction. I drive home – Mr. Detert knows where this is at – I drive by John Cicco’s every night, and he’s got the flag waving and everything exploding, all this stuff, and we all just kind of shake our heads at the sign, but it’s on purpose and it’s permitted by the zoning ordinance, so…that’s probably more of a distraction, that type of activity, than what we’re proposing, but, you know… Mr. Detert stated, I said I go back to Merrillville. I don’t agree with the signs, all the signs. And I think that type of sign is what we’re concerned about, the flashing. But I think the President made a good point about the electronic signs, when they change message there’s effectively a flash, I mean, to your eyes, it’s a flash. And I think that concerns us, that that flash may distract drivers more. I think out of the three-sided signs, I just feel more comfortable with those because it’s not as much…there’s nothing flashing at you. You got a constant lighting out there and they merely turn and give you a different message, so I think you could accomplish the same thing with those in having different messages, just not as many, and you eliminate any concept of any flashing of any kind. Mr. Burns asked, would you agree to change it to a tri-vision sign? Mr. Pettit stated, I don’t believe…no. In fact, one of our competitors in Merrillville is taking a tri-wave at the Hooter’s restaurant location and that was granted to go from a tri-wave to a digital. We’ve also heard rumor from some of our advertisers that a competitor is thinking about changing the digitals on the Toll Road. Now, again, you’re finding… Mr. Brickner asked, changing to digitals.
Mr. Burns stated, because you want six panels. Mr. Pettit stated, right. That’s where we’re going to, again. We’re trying to, because of the maintenance associated with them, we’re trying to slowly, but surely, purge out of the tri-waves and we’re definitely getting out of the eight-sheet business. Eight sheets are the very, very small ones that are 6 by 12. We’re getting rid of all those small boards and the tri-waves, we send operations guys out there all the time. And, again, as I said, we had to shut one down at the Blue Chip Casino boat in Michigan City because it’s just a headache. It’s a lot of maintenance on those tri-waves. Mr. Burns asked, would it change your mind if both sides of the sign was tri-vision? Mr. Pettit stated, I don’t believe it would, no. I’ve been kind of given marching orders by the GM and the sales manager. That’s what they want to do, and, if not, then we’ll figure out a second…I mean, the only other thing that I could…and, again, I go back to your attorney and to Todd is, if the Board wanted to recommend that we go back and look for another location under this and give us a permit maybe for a smaller sign, or would you prefer a smaller sign out there? Is it the size? I mean, I could go back to the general manager and say, they’re willing to do a digital at that location, but they want a 10 by 22. Mr. Brickner asked, and you would take down a…some of the other billboards that are in existence? Mr. Pettit stated, I could look at the inventory and recommend a couple of locations. I mean, I would be willing to go back and ask, but I can’t make that call. That’s the general manager’s call. I mean, it’s something we’ve done, Mr. Brickner. It’s fair to ask, because I did bring it up and we have done it in other communities for aesthetics. We’re proposing that in Hammond right now, where we’ll take down so many in consideration for allowing us to construct one digital billboard, so it’s not out of the realm of…we’ve done it before. Mr. Detert asked, Mr. Chairman, can I follow up on your point on what he’s talking about, location? Kathleen Harder, who’s a researcher at the University of Minnesota, she says that, let me find
Mr. Pettit stated, but, again, in our business we see that, you know, Mr. Burns brought up the curvature…we see that when you’re hitting that curve, that board is right there, and, obviously, that’s what we’re after. The sales guys are asking, how are we doing in Porter County. We’re trying to work with them. We’re trying to bring it in… Mr. Burns stated, you can’t miss the sign. Mr. Pettit stated, and that’s what they’re after, because those advertisers are going to say, man, I’m on that board. Everybody’s going to see me, and then my sales, and it goes back to economic development, what Mr. Leeth brought up about the small businessman, or the middle-sized businessman –whoever you want to target, whoever buys the board. That’s going to affect their business and that’s what it’s all about. I mean, that’s what we’re in the business of doing. So, I don’t know. I don’t know…I guess…Mr. Chairman, I might go back to the two attorneys and see if there..you know, this site only, or, do I go back to my GM and say the Board would consider an alternate location, or would you consider this location with a smaller size? Mr. Leeth stated, let me jump in and indicate how I think that we can legally do that, Mr. McClure, and that would be if the Board is willing to entertain the technology somewhere in the County, recognizing the site is what troubles some of the members, then give Mr. Pettit here the opportunity to find such a site, present a Variance back to this Board. We would have to notify the property owners around the new site that we select because, under your current, new ordinance, the Unified Development Ordinance it’s not permitted, so it would be a Variance. While we’re doing that, we would ask you not to take any action on the current Petition pending until we resolve the Variance with the new site, because, if you take action on the pending, the current one now, then our hands are somewhat tied and we’ll have to take some action or not take action depending upon your decision. Mr. Detert stated, I don’t think we should make our decision under threat. Mr. Leeth stated, I’m not trying to threaten you, but if you make a decision tonight, recognize we have a decision in 30 days, and we cannot come back before you in that period of time with another alternative that might be acceptable to you. So, if you make the
Mr. Detert asked, how about if we turn that down? You don’t want a three-panel? Mr. Brickner stated, this is for the billboard located at 368 W. Joliet Road, Union Township. We could deny this case tonight and it wouldn’t prohibit you from asking for a billboard in another location. Mr. Leeth stated, absolutely not, but what it does do is it tells Lamar…we believe that we’re entitled to it under the old ordinance. This Petition was filed under the old ordinance. We believe, our legal position tonight, is that Mr. Thompson inaccurately denied our building permit to change this from a paper panel sign to an LED, because your old ordinance, the one this is permitted by, says poster panel or its equivalent. We don’t know what “its equivalent” means, and our position is that the LED is the equivalent of a paper panel. Mr. Pettit stated, so is a tri-wave, and permits were granted to allow construction of tri-waves in unincorporated Porter County under the old ordinance. Mr. Detert stated, let me speak to that. That has no bearing on this case. Mr. Pettit stated, that by definition of poster panel, I think it most certainly does. Mr. Leeth stated, I do, too. Mr. Pettit stated, and you granted permits and set a precedent by granting permits before for more than one poster panel, which is the tri-wave. It doesn’t matter if it’s three, five, seven, nine panels, permits were granted for a three-sided, off-premise advertising sign… Mr. Detert stated, I just asked you if you would consider a three panel. Mr. Pettit stated, no, we’re getting out of the tri-wave business. We are in the six-panel business with LED’s. Mr. Detert asked, so you wouldn’t want to consider a tri-panel at all. Mr. Pettit stated, I can go back to the general manager, Mr. Detert. I can ask him, on behalf of the Board, but I can almost guarantee you what he would say. Mr. Detert stated, I feel more comfortable driving in Merrillville, Schererville, wherever I’m at, I feel much more comfortable with the three panel than I do with the lit-up sign.
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January 24, 2008